1
00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:00,529
[Music]

2
00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:03,480
foreign

3
00:00:34,930 --> 00:00:33,370
[Music]

4
00:00:42,830 --> 00:00:34,940
[Applause]

5
00:01:38,990 --> 00:00:44,130
foreign

6
00:01:42,649 --> 00:01:41,030
yes hello from the Great American

7
00:01:44,569 --> 00:01:42,659
Northwest I've been you all good evening

8
00:01:46,609 --> 00:01:44,579
good morning good afternoon wherever you

9
00:01:48,830 --> 00:01:46,619
may be Across the Nation around the

10
00:01:50,510 --> 00:01:48,840
world my name is Leah Prime and this is

11
00:01:52,670 --> 00:01:50,520
the invisible night school

12
00:01:54,050 --> 00:01:52,680
for those of us for those of you who are

13
00:01:55,910 --> 00:01:54,060
just joining us the invisible night

14
00:01:57,889 --> 00:01:55,920
school is a small Consortium of lay

15
00:01:59,210 --> 00:01:57,899
researchers and Scholars pursuing the

16
00:02:02,210 --> 00:01:59,220
study and exploration of high

17
00:02:04,069 --> 00:02:02,220
strangeness ins is not a monolith we

18
00:02:06,410 --> 00:02:04,079
represent buried ideas backgrounds

19
00:02:07,969 --> 00:02:06,420
disciplines and experiences and seek to

20
00:02:09,469 --> 00:02:07,979
engage in good faith dialogue with other

21
00:02:11,089 --> 00:02:09,479
curious minds

22
00:02:13,670 --> 00:02:11,099
tonight we're going to be talking about

23
00:02:16,369 --> 00:02:13,680
JB Ryan and the Duke parapsychology lab

24
00:02:18,650 --> 00:02:16,379
with Nick and our newest adjunct faculty

25
00:02:19,369 --> 00:02:18,660
member Jay shank long time friend of the

26
00:02:21,050 --> 00:02:19,379
show

27
00:02:23,390 --> 00:02:21,060
and we're also delighted to welcome our

28
00:02:25,729 --> 00:02:23,400
special guest Courtney block Courtney

29
00:02:27,530 --> 00:02:25,739
block is the instruction reference and

30
00:02:29,990 --> 00:02:27,540
user engagement librarian at Indiana

31
00:02:31,610 --> 00:02:30,000
University Southeast she's also the

32
00:02:33,170 --> 00:02:31,620
author of the Encyclopedia of

33
00:02:35,990 --> 00:02:33,180
parapsychology from Roman and

34
00:02:37,550 --> 00:02:36,000
littlefields 2022 and researching the

35
00:02:39,650 --> 00:02:37,560
Paranormal how to find Reliable

36
00:02:41,809 --> 00:02:39,660
information about parapsychology ghosts

37
00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:41,819
astrology cryptozoology near-death

38
00:02:47,270 --> 00:02:44,640
experiences and more also published by

39
00:02:48,830 --> 00:02:47,280
Roman and Littlefield back in 2020. her

40
00:02:50,630 --> 00:02:48,840
work is featured in volume 3 of The

41
00:02:53,089 --> 00:02:50,640
Feminine Macabre and you can find an

42
00:02:55,070 --> 00:02:53,099
upcoming article of hers in volume 35 of

43
00:02:57,110 --> 00:02:55,080
haunted magazine one of the things

44
00:02:59,089 --> 00:02:57,120
Courtney enjoys most is combining her

45
00:03:00,770 --> 00:02:59,099
librarian and paranormal interests in

46
00:03:03,170 --> 00:03:00,780
teaching people how to locate free

47
00:03:05,570 --> 00:03:03,180
credible resources on a wide range of

48
00:03:07,130 --> 00:03:05,580
paranormal topics to see what she does

49
00:03:08,750 --> 00:03:07,140
when she's not staying up all night to

50
00:03:11,990 --> 00:03:08,760
meet writing deadlines follow her on

51
00:03:15,470 --> 00:03:12,000
Instagram at liminal.librarian

52
00:03:17,449 --> 00:03:15,480
so beautiful introduction I'm deluded to

53
00:03:19,009 --> 00:03:17,459
bring you all onto the show so first I'm

54
00:03:21,770 --> 00:03:19,019
going to welcome our resident dubious

55
00:03:25,070 --> 00:03:21,780
Lyman Nick it is wonderful to see you

56
00:03:27,170 --> 00:03:25,080
again friend hello hello did you

57
00:03:30,649 --> 00:03:27,180
compliment your own intro

58
00:03:33,589 --> 00:03:30,659
did I yes you said it was beautiful it

59
00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:33,599
was beautiful hey what can I say man I'm

60
00:03:36,649 --> 00:03:35,280
basically a professional

61
00:03:39,110 --> 00:03:36,659
um and I'm of course going to welcome

62
00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:39,120
Jay as well Jay so great to have you

63
00:03:43,850 --> 00:03:41,760
friend thank you thank you very much

64
00:03:47,809 --> 00:03:43,860
um coming to you live from the uh cold

65
00:03:50,390 --> 00:03:47,819
depths of space well the K hole not not

66
00:03:52,850 --> 00:03:50,400
really I'm

67
00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:52,860
from a Fortified Compound in an

68
00:03:57,589 --> 00:03:55,319
undisclosed location for real but yes

69
00:03:58,910 --> 00:03:57,599
thank you for having me of course it

70
00:04:00,470 --> 00:03:58,920
sounds about right um and of course

71
00:04:01,789 --> 00:04:00,480
before I bring Courtney on I also want

72
00:04:03,170 --> 00:04:01,799
to say hello to some of our weekly

73
00:04:06,110 --> 00:04:03,180
visitors

74
00:04:09,050 --> 00:04:06,120
um definitely we have uh Vancouver guy

75
00:04:11,270 --> 00:04:09,060
Jeff Knox friend of the show we also

76
00:04:13,250 --> 00:04:11,280
have Fringe oh commenting on Space

77
00:04:14,449 --> 00:04:13,260
pancakes that's right

78
00:04:16,310 --> 00:04:14,459
um

79
00:04:18,170 --> 00:04:16,320
they look so good right they look like

80
00:04:20,870 --> 00:04:18,180
craps

81
00:04:22,550 --> 00:04:20,880
um spooky great to see you

82
00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:22,560
um of course Duncan we see you every

83
00:04:26,990 --> 00:04:25,080
week lovely to have you as always

84
00:04:29,749 --> 00:04:27,000
um oh I did want to call this out Fringe

85
00:04:32,450 --> 00:04:29,759
saying greetings from Mystic Delaware

86
00:04:34,790 --> 00:04:32,460
don't you remember that yes uh the Earth

87
00:04:36,409 --> 00:04:34,800
great to see you again and uh oh we have

88
00:04:39,110 --> 00:04:36,419
Jack Brewer this is like a who is who

89
00:04:41,150 --> 00:04:39,120
yeah favorite people hi Jack simonfly

90
00:04:42,770 --> 00:04:41,160
appears to be awake right now as well oh

91
00:04:44,090 --> 00:04:42,780
fantastic

92
00:04:46,189 --> 00:04:44,100
um and then it also looks like we have a

93
00:04:47,570 --> 00:04:46,199
friend of Courtney's in the audience

94
00:04:48,710 --> 00:04:47,580
so

95
00:04:50,390 --> 00:04:48,720
um

96
00:04:52,189 --> 00:04:50,400
now that I've said my hellos to everyone

97
00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:52,199
in the audience brought you guys on I'm

98
00:04:54,710 --> 00:04:53,580
gonna I know I was gonna say I'm gonna

99
00:04:56,749 --> 00:04:54,720
bring in the women of the hour here

100
00:05:01,969 --> 00:04:56,759
Courtney

101
00:05:04,430 --> 00:05:01,979
school hello hello thanks for having me

102
00:05:07,430 --> 00:05:04,440
I am I was so excited to be here I'm

103
00:05:09,530 --> 00:05:07,440
excited whenever like weirdos gather

104
00:05:11,450 --> 00:05:09,540
um they're just so happy to like meet

105
00:05:13,370 --> 00:05:11,460
new weirdos

106
00:05:15,350 --> 00:05:13,380
um see some ones that I've already met

107
00:05:17,450 --> 00:05:15,360
and just can't wait to see where this

108
00:05:19,730 --> 00:05:17,460
conversation goes

109
00:05:22,310 --> 00:05:19,740
fit so

110
00:05:25,189 --> 00:05:22,320
um tell us about your relationship to JB

111
00:05:27,170 --> 00:05:25,199
Ryan and the Duke parapsychology lab

112
00:05:29,810 --> 00:05:27,180
um and I asked because I know that it

113
00:05:31,010 --> 00:05:29,820
sounds to me like you took a field trip

114
00:05:33,230 --> 00:05:31,020
uh

115
00:05:35,810 --> 00:05:33,240
and I'd love to hear some about this

116
00:05:37,909 --> 00:05:35,820
oh my gosh Okay so

117
00:05:41,029 --> 00:05:37,919
my relationship with JB Ryan and the

118
00:05:44,029 --> 00:05:41,039
parapsychology lab so I I have always

119
00:05:45,950 --> 00:05:44,039
been interested in the topic

120
00:05:47,990 --> 00:05:45,960
um probably like so many of us here I

121
00:05:50,270 --> 00:05:48,000
bet like it's just an inherent part of

122
00:05:54,529 --> 00:05:50,280
our Lives

123
00:05:57,650 --> 00:05:54,539
um and I really started

124
00:06:00,050 --> 00:05:57,660
um like digging into it in terms of like

125
00:06:02,450 --> 00:06:00,060
uh as a librarian when I help people

126
00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:02,460
find information

127
00:06:06,890 --> 00:06:04,380
um at some point like getting to know

128
00:06:10,070 --> 00:06:06,900
like hey there there's this whole long

129
00:06:11,930 --> 00:06:10,080
history of people who studied things the

130
00:06:14,150 --> 00:06:11,940
weird things that I'm interested in like

131
00:06:16,010 --> 00:06:14,160
extra sensory perception ghost hauntings

132
00:06:18,230 --> 00:06:16,020
and they all kind of called it

133
00:06:20,510 --> 00:06:18,240
parapsychology

134
00:06:23,210 --> 00:06:20,520
and that's how I sort of got to know

135
00:06:25,909 --> 00:06:23,220
about JB Ryan and the parapsychology

136
00:06:27,830 --> 00:06:25,919
labs and

137
00:06:29,270 --> 00:06:27,840
um my books were really just kind of

138
00:06:32,930 --> 00:06:29,280
born out of

139
00:06:34,610 --> 00:06:32,940
combining My Librarian skills with my

140
00:06:37,490 --> 00:06:34,620
paranormal interests to help other

141
00:06:39,170 --> 00:06:37,500
people know that because I think that

142
00:06:42,290 --> 00:06:39,180
there's like this stereotype there's

143
00:06:45,770 --> 00:06:42,300
that there's not credible

144
00:06:49,189 --> 00:06:45,780
like inquiry and credible Research into

145
00:06:52,189 --> 00:06:49,199
these things into these topics

146
00:06:54,950 --> 00:06:52,199
um and then just to make a long story

147
00:06:58,309 --> 00:06:54,960
short all of that coalesced

148
00:07:00,370 --> 00:06:58,319
um last fall during my sabbatical I I

149
00:07:03,650 --> 00:07:00,380
took a trip down to the Duke University

150
00:07:08,150 --> 00:07:03,660
parapsychology archive

151
00:07:09,650 --> 00:07:08,160
um and got to dig around in it I I was

152
00:07:12,350 --> 00:07:09,660
specifically

153
00:07:14,390 --> 00:07:12,360
most interested in looking into the

154
00:07:15,710 --> 00:07:14,400
lives of some women who were involved

155
00:07:18,290 --> 00:07:15,720
with the lab

156
00:07:22,430 --> 00:07:18,300
um but but in the process learned a bit

157
00:07:24,950 --> 00:07:22,440
more about JB uh and his uh his wife

158
00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:24,960
Louisa who was also a doctor got her PhD

159
00:07:30,170 --> 00:07:27,120
before him I might add

160
00:07:33,409 --> 00:07:30,180
um was she uh was it in botany or was

161
00:07:36,950 --> 00:07:33,419
that or is that uh Joseph the both of

162
00:07:39,110 --> 00:07:36,960
them yeah both of them were botanists

163
00:07:40,969 --> 00:07:39,120
they they have like these weird lives

164
00:07:43,930 --> 00:07:40,979
right like

165
00:07:48,110 --> 00:07:43,940
um they were they were

166
00:07:51,290 --> 00:07:48,120
botanist uh by like training and degree

167
00:07:52,430 --> 00:07:51,300
uh Louisa got her PhD a few years she

168
00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:52,440
was a few years

169
00:07:56,150 --> 00:07:54,380
um just a few years older than him too

170
00:07:58,070 --> 00:07:56,160
and uh

171
00:08:00,170 --> 00:07:58,080
but they were also both really

172
00:08:02,629 --> 00:08:00,180
interested in Psychology and like

173
00:08:06,050 --> 00:08:02,639
matters of like the mind and I think

174
00:08:08,330 --> 00:08:06,060
that's just sort of what eventually got

175
00:08:11,029 --> 00:08:08,340
them invited to come to Duke and do

176
00:08:13,670 --> 00:08:11,039
studies and so forth and but it's a

177
00:08:16,730 --> 00:08:13,680
funny like factoid right like they're

178
00:08:18,770 --> 00:08:16,740
botanists yeah I heard that they um they

179
00:08:21,350 --> 00:08:18,780
saw a presentation by Arthur Conan Doyle

180
00:08:23,089 --> 00:08:21,360
and that kind of was maybe the impetus

181
00:08:27,050 --> 00:08:23,099
of it because if you recall at the time

182
00:08:28,969 --> 00:08:27,060
it was uh he was a big proponent of that

183
00:08:31,850 --> 00:08:28,979
um even though it was the commonly

184
00:08:34,310 --> 00:08:31,860
fairies here

185
00:08:36,529 --> 00:08:34,320
um but but very much uh a proponent of

186
00:08:39,230 --> 00:08:36,539
mediumship which was all the rage at the

187
00:08:41,990 --> 00:08:39,240
time right this is the late 1800s uh if

188
00:08:45,889 --> 00:08:42,000
I'm right like late 1800s early 1900s is

189
00:08:49,310 --> 00:08:45,899
when they went to Duke was it well later

190
00:08:54,410 --> 00:08:49,320
at Duke it was uh in like the 19 late

191
00:08:57,350 --> 00:08:55,070
um

192
00:08:58,970 --> 00:08:57,360
oh but yeah Arthur Conan Doyle I'd

193
00:09:02,329 --> 00:08:58,980
almost forgotten that he was like a big

194
00:09:04,190 --> 00:09:02,339
uh proponent of that that's so odd

195
00:09:06,530 --> 00:09:04,200
because I think everything that he was a

196
00:09:09,350 --> 00:09:06,540
proponent of was a hoax like even though

197
00:09:11,449 --> 00:09:09,360
he believed in it everything that he was

198
00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:11,459
like yeah I'm really getting behind this

199
00:09:15,949 --> 00:09:13,560
was just him being bamboozled

200
00:09:17,509 --> 00:09:15,959
he had a broken [\h__\h] detector which

201
00:09:19,790 --> 00:09:17,519
is really incredible given what he was

202
00:09:22,790 --> 00:09:19,800
writing right right yeah I mean yeah

203
00:09:25,070 --> 00:09:22,800
like it's super like rational logically

204
00:09:27,710 --> 00:09:25,080
reasonable detective stories

205
00:09:29,690 --> 00:09:27,720
well of course his inspiration was uh Dr

206
00:09:32,690 --> 00:09:29,700
Bell who he was kind sort of the

207
00:09:34,550 --> 00:09:32,700
pseudo-watson to at the time uh he was a

208
00:09:36,230 --> 00:09:34,560
doctor who thought he would he could um

209
00:09:37,790 --> 00:09:36,240
diagnose the patients without

210
00:09:39,110 --> 00:09:37,800
really speaking to them which was

211
00:09:41,630 --> 00:09:39,120
actually kind of the inspiration for

212
00:09:43,070 --> 00:09:41,640
that TV show House some floor things

213
00:09:45,530 --> 00:09:43,080
changed the more they stay the same

214
00:09:47,690 --> 00:09:45,540
right isn't that strange

215
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:47,700
um before we get more into the history

216
00:09:52,370 --> 00:09:49,680
of that kind of stuff we have a lot of

217
00:09:54,829 --> 00:09:52,380
strictly UFO people in the chat I'm

218
00:09:56,750 --> 00:09:54,839
pretty sure and words like

219
00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:56,760
parapsychology get thrown around and I

220
00:10:01,190 --> 00:09:58,800
think that they're um

221
00:10:02,630 --> 00:10:01,200
kind of Amalgamated with uh what we

222
00:10:04,430 --> 00:10:02,640
understand is ghost hunting or just

223
00:10:07,790 --> 00:10:04,440
paranormal investigation but there is

224
00:10:12,410 --> 00:10:09,530
I think

225
00:10:14,329 --> 00:10:12,420
like uh what like what would you say

226
00:10:16,550 --> 00:10:14,339
that the differences are between what

227
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:16,560
you know your average person or our

228
00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:18,240
average viewer would think of as like

229
00:10:25,190 --> 00:10:20,600
ghost hunting and actual parapsychology

230
00:10:28,009 --> 00:10:25,200
oh this is such a good question okay

231
00:10:30,290 --> 00:10:28,019
um I think it's I think it's kind of

232
00:10:31,610 --> 00:10:30,300
fascinating that

233
00:10:33,769 --> 00:10:31,620
I think

234
00:10:36,650 --> 00:10:33,779
a lot of people don't realize they hear

235
00:10:38,389 --> 00:10:36,660
this sort of big like clinical word like

236
00:10:42,130 --> 00:10:38,399
parapsychology

237
00:10:46,250 --> 00:10:42,140
um and don't realize that it encompasses

238
00:10:49,430 --> 00:10:46,260
so many different phenomena you know

239
00:10:51,769 --> 00:10:49,440
extra sensory perception ghosts

240
00:10:54,170 --> 00:10:51,779
hauntings

241
00:10:56,449 --> 00:10:54,180
um psychokinesis

242
00:10:58,269 --> 00:10:56,459
um Poltergeist phenomena which the

243
00:11:01,310 --> 00:10:58,279
researchers would just classify as

244
00:11:04,190 --> 00:11:01,320
recurrent spontaneous psychotherapist

245
00:11:07,069 --> 00:11:04,200
okay yeah or speaking

246
00:11:08,930 --> 00:11:07,079
it's really interesting they're they're

247
00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:08,940
because they are there's a lot of

248
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,380
crossover on what they're researching

249
00:11:15,050 --> 00:11:12,720
right or what they're investigating

250
00:11:16,970 --> 00:11:15,060
um but it's they're kind of the the

251
00:11:19,069 --> 00:11:16,980
perspectives are a little striking right

252
00:11:21,530 --> 00:11:19,079
because from parapsychology and like you

253
00:11:23,870 --> 00:11:21,540
were talking about rspk that's

254
00:11:25,130 --> 00:11:23,880
um essentially just describe what a

255
00:11:27,949 --> 00:11:25,140
ghost hunter would call a poltergeist

256
00:11:30,170 --> 00:11:27,959
right right so yeah from the

257
00:11:32,290 --> 00:11:30,180
parapsychologist's mind it's the person

258
00:11:35,269 --> 00:11:32,300
The Observer that is essentially

259
00:11:37,009 --> 00:11:35,279
creating this phenomenon that that uh

260
00:11:39,170 --> 00:11:37,019
the Ghost Hunter would be claiming as a

261
00:11:41,170 --> 00:11:39,180
separate entity right is that is that

262
00:11:44,569 --> 00:11:41,180
that's kind of the gist right like um

263
00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:44,579
parapsychology looks at kind of the

264
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:47,640
umbrella term of ESP so like you have

265
00:11:52,370 --> 00:11:50,399
telepathy uh Clairvoyance

266
00:11:54,769 --> 00:11:52,380
um and then the uh the movement stuff

267
00:11:56,030 --> 00:11:54,779
the um psychokinesis right yeah and

268
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,040
that's kind of what plays into the

269
00:12:01,610 --> 00:11:58,320
Poltergeist aspect but parapsychology

270
00:12:05,810 --> 00:12:03,290
um what's the word I'm looking for

271
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:05,820
survival after death yes still right and

272
00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:09,120
which would Encompass ghosts

273
00:12:15,949 --> 00:12:13,140
yeah I yes I love this yeah they were

274
00:12:17,810 --> 00:12:15,959
really motivated so before you have like

275
00:12:21,530 --> 00:12:17,820
parapsychology which is what we refer to

276
00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:21,540
it today you've got psychic research

277
00:12:25,550 --> 00:12:24,180
psychical research

278
00:12:26,930 --> 00:12:25,560
um which I just think is like I don't

279
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:26,940
know I think it's a Lovelier more

280
00:12:31,550 --> 00:12:29,279
Charming way of talking about it

281
00:12:33,710 --> 00:12:31,560
um but yeah and those folks were really

282
00:12:37,250 --> 00:12:33,720
motivated well well a they were

283
00:12:40,430 --> 00:12:37,260
motivated by trying to figure out what

284
00:12:41,569 --> 00:12:40,440
if anything was was maybe

285
00:12:43,970 --> 00:12:41,579
um

286
00:12:47,329 --> 00:12:43,980
you know real or valid during that like

287
00:12:49,310 --> 00:12:47,339
Heyday of spiritualism and so forth so

288
00:12:51,769 --> 00:12:49,320
they were really motivated just by what

289
00:12:55,730 --> 00:12:51,779
you just said this notion of survival

290
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:55,740
after death and I do to get back to your

291
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:58,800
like question about UFOs I do feel like

292
00:13:02,569 --> 00:13:00,480
you know they're

293
00:13:05,629 --> 00:13:02,579
they're sort of like related but

294
00:13:07,190 --> 00:13:05,639
separate topics I think that a lot of

295
00:13:09,650 --> 00:13:07,200
like you know people doing

296
00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:09,660
parapsychological research are also

297
00:13:14,810 --> 00:13:13,440
super interested into UFOs oh yeah yeah

298
00:13:17,990 --> 00:13:14,820
and

299
00:13:21,230 --> 00:13:18,000
I think there is some crossover

300
00:13:23,750 --> 00:13:21,240
but I haven't dug into as much of that I

301
00:13:25,250 --> 00:13:23,760
I will say you know and people that have

302
00:13:28,370 --> 00:13:25,260
watched man this know I've read like two

303
00:13:30,769 --> 00:13:28,380
books and I keep bringing them up so um

304
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:30,779
I will say uh for the parapsychological

305
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,279
perspective Scott Rago hmm believed um

306
00:13:41,449 --> 00:13:37,920
his he one of his thesis was that the

307
00:13:43,569 --> 00:13:41,459
UFO sightings were a really

308
00:13:46,310 --> 00:13:43,579
um powerful side manifestation

309
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:46,320
interesting like that was

310
00:13:54,350 --> 00:13:49,920
um in our haunted Universe because he

311
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:54,360
uses that lens I think that came out of

312
00:13:57,470 --> 00:13:55,440
um

313
00:13:59,389 --> 00:13:57,480
the Rhine like the Rhine studies

314
00:14:02,389 --> 00:13:59,399
furthering it he's looking at things

315
00:14:03,949 --> 00:14:02,399
like The Apparition of Fatima he's

316
00:14:06,230 --> 00:14:03,959
looking at his UFO thing but he said

317
00:14:08,569 --> 00:14:06,240
he's like it's a side it's a Psy event

318
00:14:09,490 --> 00:14:08,579
it's a side manifestation

319
00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:09,500
um

320
00:14:14,810 --> 00:14:11,760
several other

321
00:14:17,150 --> 00:14:14,820
uh cases that were um

322
00:14:19,610 --> 00:14:17,160
sort of well known when he was writing

323
00:14:21,769 --> 00:14:19,620
that book but he took it into and this

324
00:14:23,329 --> 00:14:21,779
is one of those things that um I haven't

325
00:14:25,250 --> 00:14:23,339
remember those Ripley's Believe It or

326
00:14:28,910 --> 00:14:25,260
Not books that were like a little low

327
00:14:33,829 --> 00:14:31,069
um I haven't really read about people's

328
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:33,839
Vanishing spontaneous Vanishing of

329
00:14:38,230 --> 00:14:36,240
people oh that used to scare the [\h__\h]

330
00:14:40,490 --> 00:14:38,240
out of me when I was a kid

331
00:14:43,370 --> 00:14:40,500
probably in a Ripley's Believe It or Not

332
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:43,380
book and it just also

333
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:46,160
um that was just my phenomena to him

334
00:14:52,790 --> 00:14:50,880
that was some kind of you know uh really

335
00:14:55,610 --> 00:14:52,800
heavily

336
00:14:58,069 --> 00:14:55,620
um psychokinetic or telekinetic surge

337
00:15:02,090 --> 00:14:58,079
moving people

338
00:15:04,670 --> 00:15:02,100
it's like next level on UFOs almost it

339
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:04,680
sounds like right yeah yeah it reminds

340
00:15:08,210 --> 00:15:06,240
me a lot of that or it reminds me I mean

341
00:15:10,910 --> 00:15:08,220
it even reminds me a lot of like some of

342
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:10,920
the esoteric Buddhism or

343
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:11,760
um

344
00:15:15,949 --> 00:15:14,160
like esoteric bajriana right these ideas

345
00:15:17,389 --> 00:15:15,959
that in certain meditative States you

346
00:15:22,310 --> 00:15:17,399
can like literally like dissolve your

347
00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:25,550
um like yeah I mean I always say to

348
00:15:31,490 --> 00:15:28,620
myself it's like the X-Men Level side

349
00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:31,500
manifestation instead of guessing the

350
00:15:36,889 --> 00:15:34,620
zener card or like making the the little

351
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:36,899
thing move in the lab you're just like

352
00:15:44,030 --> 00:15:42,180
I'm full on Jean Gray like here it is

353
00:15:48,530 --> 00:15:44,040
what's this book you're talking about

354
00:15:51,170 --> 00:15:48,540
Jay uh it's our our haunted Universe bye

355
00:15:53,329 --> 00:15:51,180
okay that sounds ringing a bell well he

356
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:53,339
he titled it what did what was keel's

357
00:16:01,730 --> 00:16:00,170
yeah he he he titled it kind of as a

358
00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:01,740
because he was a he was also a fan of

359
00:16:06,110 --> 00:16:04,440
Keel but okay

360
00:16:08,389 --> 00:16:06,120
yeah interesting

361
00:16:10,009 --> 00:16:08,399
so you um Courtney you touched on it a

362
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:10,019
little bit parapsychology did

363
00:16:15,470 --> 00:16:12,240
essentially kind of it was an offshoot

364
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:15,480
of spiritualism back back in the 1800s

365
00:16:18,530 --> 00:16:17,519
right I mean it all kind of has that

366
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,540
same

367
00:16:23,070 --> 00:16:21,360
um origin point in history I think we we

368
00:16:24,610 --> 00:16:23,080
would all agree was the fox sisters

369
00:16:28,250 --> 00:16:24,620
[Music]

370
00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:28,260
yeah it's it's got a fascinating history

371
00:16:34,129 --> 00:16:31,500
and thank you for bringing this up

372
00:16:35,870 --> 00:16:34,139
um so yeah like what's really

373
00:16:37,550 --> 00:16:35,880
interesting and somebody in the comments

374
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:37,560
I saw was talking about how they were a

375
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:40,440
fan of William James which the father of

376
00:16:47,449 --> 00:16:44,000
like American psychology right was into

377
00:16:48,769 --> 00:16:47,459
psychical research but so so many of our

378
00:16:50,629 --> 00:16:48,779
textbooks kind of leave that little

379
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:50,639
factoid out

380
00:16:57,189 --> 00:16:53,519
um but yeah so at the like you know you

381
00:17:00,050 --> 00:16:57,199
got like the late mid to late 1800s the

382
00:17:02,329 --> 00:17:00,060
spiritualism craze is like sweeping New

383
00:17:05,630 --> 00:17:02,339
York it eventually like sweeps Europe in

384
00:17:09,710 --> 00:17:05,640
the world and at the same time

385
00:17:13,789 --> 00:17:09,720
uh both psychology and psychical

386
00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:13,799
research is like being sort of born at

387
00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:15,660
the same time

388
00:17:21,169 --> 00:17:18,600
um with each other so like all of these

389
00:17:22,189 --> 00:17:21,179
things and it was really I think that

390
00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:22,199
that

391
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:26,400
fact like really kind of uh still is

392
00:17:33,530 --> 00:17:29,520
part of the reason why there there can

393
00:17:36,110 --> 00:17:33,540
be uh a lot of tension in the academy

394
00:17:38,810 --> 00:17:36,120
like within re among researchers about

395
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:38,820
the value of psychic uh psychical

396
00:17:43,190 --> 00:17:41,640
research or parapsychology because when

397
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:43,200
Psychology was sort of coming up and

398
00:17:47,210 --> 00:17:45,600
trying to get foothold and psychical

399
00:17:49,610 --> 00:17:47,220
research was also like trying to get

400
00:17:51,169 --> 00:17:49,620
foothold you like people were either in

401
00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:51,179
one of two camps you thought that

402
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:53,220
psychical studies were a natural part of

403
00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:55,740
psychology like why wouldn't it be of

404
00:17:58,789 --> 00:17:56,940
course like all of these things

405
00:18:01,250 --> 00:17:58,799
happening and you know people seeing

406
00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:01,260
things and experiencing things and then

407
00:18:06,409 --> 00:18:04,020
other people who were just like no that

408
00:18:08,810 --> 00:18:06,419
has no part here

409
00:18:11,390 --> 00:18:08,820
um but yes a huge part of it Nick like

410
00:18:15,049 --> 00:18:11,400
you had mentioned was um

411
00:18:17,150 --> 00:18:15,059
motivated by people seeing spiritualism

412
00:18:18,950 --> 00:18:17,160
and seances and just like the craze that

413
00:18:20,770 --> 00:18:18,960
it was and being like

414
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:20,780
I wonder

415
00:18:27,049 --> 00:18:23,580
what could be going on here and so they

416
00:18:29,390 --> 00:18:27,059
set forward not only to debunk and

417
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:29,400
ferret out fraud but to people be like

418
00:18:34,789 --> 00:18:31,919
is there anything happening here and can

419
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:34,799
we find it that is a good point is um

420
00:18:39,529 --> 00:18:37,020
when the uh the Society of psychical

421
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:39,539
research started in England one of their

422
00:18:44,330 --> 00:18:42,000
main uh things that they were doing was

423
00:18:45,830 --> 00:18:44,340
investigating mediums and and even

424
00:18:47,630 --> 00:18:45,840
exploding uh exposing them something

425
00:18:49,370 --> 00:18:47,640
Harry Houdini was doing

426
00:18:52,190 --> 00:18:49,380
um which caused the feud between him and

427
00:18:52,789 --> 00:18:52,200
Arthur Conan Doyle yeah actually

428
00:18:55,190 --> 00:18:52,799
um

429
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:55,200
but yeah uh although there was there

430
00:18:59,570 --> 00:18:56,400
were some ups and downs in the beginning

431
00:19:01,850 --> 00:18:59,580
there right there was a

432
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:01,860
those Beyond they instigated and

433
00:19:07,190 --> 00:19:04,020
verified that the fox sisters

434
00:19:08,289 --> 00:19:07,200
um DD is it Didi home or DD Hume

435
00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:08,299
could someone

436
00:19:14,990 --> 00:19:12,780
done this uh Hume I believe Daniel's

437
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:15,000
pronounced you but spelled home yeah

438
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,520
yeah that's that's the levitating guy

439
00:19:21,370 --> 00:19:18,960
who went out the window they got it yeah

440
00:19:25,549 --> 00:19:21,380
the Scottish guy yeah yeah

441
00:19:29,169 --> 00:19:25,559
oh it's Daniel Douglas is oh yes dunglas

442
00:19:33,230 --> 00:19:31,610
I'm thinking of uh Wallace and Crooks

443
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:33,240
Wallace and Crooks

444
00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:35,400
um they were they were uh

445
00:19:40,970 --> 00:19:39,059
they they kind of like they were pre uh

446
00:19:43,370 --> 00:19:40,980
Society psychical Society

447
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:43,380
they were um trying to trying to kind of

448
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:44,880
demonstrate

449
00:19:50,270 --> 00:19:48,600
uh spiritualist phenomena via scientific

450
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:50,280
scientific method

451
00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:51,840
um and they I think they actually are

452
00:19:56,150 --> 00:19:53,520
the ones who kind of invented table

453
00:19:58,370 --> 00:19:56,160
tipping which ended up being used in a

454
00:19:59,810 --> 00:19:58,380
lot of mediumship uh and then it was

455
00:20:02,090 --> 00:19:59,820
Michael Faraday just a little while

456
00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:02,100
later who kind of discovered and coined

457
00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:05,160
the idiomotor effect right what kind of

458
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:06,900
what how uh Ouija boards and pendulums

459
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:09,720
are supposed to work now he wasn't

460
00:20:12,830 --> 00:20:11,760
saying that every medium was doing that

461
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:12,840
but like

462
00:20:17,690 --> 00:20:15,120
there's there's a lot of uh

463
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:17,700
uh skepticism in the early days that you

464
00:20:20,930 --> 00:20:18,720
wouldn't really expect to see

465
00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:20,940
necessarily especially with such a

466
00:20:25,850 --> 00:20:22,980
spiritualism boom happening

467
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:25,860
but it that was kind of the uh the

468
00:20:30,169 --> 00:20:27,600
stepping stones that built towards the

469
00:20:32,090 --> 00:20:30,179
Duke Labs of wanting to take these you

470
00:20:34,190 --> 00:20:32,100
know Fringe and weird topics like we

471
00:20:38,270 --> 00:20:34,200
still call them and kind of

472
00:20:41,230 --> 00:20:38,280
try to get them into a lab yeah

473
00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:41,240
I am I'm gonna jump into

474
00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:43,320
one of the things that always strikes me

475
00:20:46,730 --> 00:20:44,820
about this subject and its emergence

476
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:46,740
around the turn of the century

477
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,260
um and then through Ryan's work at Duke

478
00:20:53,630 --> 00:20:51,840
one is uh I brought this up on the show

479
00:20:55,010 --> 00:20:53,640
before but it's worth repeating this is

480
00:20:56,690 --> 00:20:55,020
really the first time in the popular

481
00:20:59,330 --> 00:20:56,700
imagination people are encountering

482
00:21:01,130 --> 00:20:59,340
invisible forces on a daily basis things

483
00:21:05,150 --> 00:21:01,140
like electricity

484
00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:05,160
um Telephone telegram Telegraph

485
00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:07,080
um television even

486
00:21:09,529 --> 00:21:08,460
um so there's there's all of this going

487
00:21:10,669 --> 00:21:09,539
on

488
00:21:11,630 --> 00:21:10,679
um radio

489
00:21:13,370 --> 00:21:11,640
Etc

490
00:21:15,409 --> 00:21:13,380
um and then the other thing and I

491
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:15,419
especially think of this is like

492
00:21:20,510 --> 00:21:18,480
the first half certainly of the 21st

493
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:20,520
century is we have World War one and

494
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:22,799
World War II we also have the American

495
00:21:28,070 --> 00:21:25,200
Civil War obviously in the late 1800s

496
00:21:29,570 --> 00:21:28,080
and so you have a population that one is

497
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:29,580
sort of in the collective imagination

498
00:21:33,049 --> 00:21:31,260
has this idea about these unseeable

499
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:33,059
forces that are permeating daily life

500
00:21:36,950 --> 00:21:34,860
and sort of restructuring how we engage

501
00:21:39,649 --> 00:21:36,960
with and relate to one another but then

502
00:21:42,169 --> 00:21:39,659
we also have a nation that is uh fairly

503
00:21:43,789 --> 00:21:42,179
broadly and largely extremely grief

504
00:21:45,289 --> 00:21:43,799
written like these are people that are

505
00:21:48,110 --> 00:21:45,299
contending with the deaths of their

506
00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:48,120
Fathers and Sons and husbands and etc

507
00:21:51,289 --> 00:21:50,220
etc uh probably actually not too

508
00:21:53,890 --> 00:21:51,299
different than what a lot of what's

509
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:53,900
going on now in the

510
00:21:58,190 --> 00:21:56,640
post-pandemic quote-unquote period where

511
00:22:00,169 --> 00:21:58,200
you see the rise of spirituality because

512
00:22:01,970 --> 00:22:00,179
you are seeking people people are kind

513
00:22:03,649 --> 00:22:01,980
of seeking meaning and processes through

514
00:22:06,350 --> 00:22:03,659
which to navigate and understand grief

515
00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:06,360
both of those small and a large scale

516
00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:07,980
um and so when I think about the

517
00:22:11,930 --> 00:22:10,200
emergence of parapsychology I I can't

518
00:22:13,970 --> 00:22:11,940
help but also think about the broader

519
00:22:17,390 --> 00:22:13,980
kind of social cultural and historical

520
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:17,400
context that these um these interests

521
00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:20,880
were emerging in I read another book

522
00:22:26,830 --> 00:22:22,740
and

523
00:22:32,450 --> 00:22:30,289
everybody knows like the you should have

524
00:22:34,070 --> 00:22:32,460
like um put a thing up yeah we're gonna

525
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:34,080
take bets on how long it would take me

526
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:37,919
to mention that yeah this is like this

527
00:22:44,270 --> 00:22:41,039
is like sleeping with me every night

528
00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:44,280
uh Jeffrey Scott who's actually a media

529
00:22:49,730 --> 00:22:46,679
critic um wrote a book called Haunted

530
00:22:52,250 --> 00:22:49,740
media discussing all of the like the

531
00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:52,260
forces in that and that I think one of

532
00:22:57,770 --> 00:22:55,380
the major things where this got uh

533
00:22:59,870 --> 00:22:57,780
into the scientific foothold was exactly

534
00:23:03,230 --> 00:22:59,880
what you said it was Wireless telegraphy

535
00:23:04,549 --> 00:23:03,240
uh telegraphy telegraphy I know what

536
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:04,559
you're saying yeah you know what I'm

537
00:23:08,510 --> 00:23:06,480
saying because we get it

538
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:08,520
um that was actually used by a lot of

539
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:10,440
mediums in the day as a metaphor like a

540
00:23:14,710 --> 00:23:11,760
little metaphor you're getting a

541
00:23:17,930 --> 00:23:14,720
spiritual Telegraph

542
00:23:20,090 --> 00:23:17,940
over long distances yep and also

543
00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:20,100
reaction at a different distance that

544
00:23:25,190 --> 00:23:22,260
medieval kind of concept of The Ether

545
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:25,200
again in popular culture too which like

546
00:23:29,450 --> 00:23:27,360
it's almost interchangeable from a lot

547
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:29,460
of perspectives from you know heaven or

548
00:23:33,590 --> 00:23:31,919
an afterlife uh where Spirits are

549
00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:33,600
alternate Dimensions when you get into

550
00:23:37,070 --> 00:23:35,700
some of the UFO stuff but always this

551
00:23:40,210 --> 00:23:37,080
concept of like

552
00:23:42,590 --> 00:23:40,220
a parallel place next to ours right and

553
00:23:44,690 --> 00:23:42,600
with that stuff flying around that kind

554
00:23:46,909 --> 00:23:44,700
of I think really that's where the UFOs

555
00:23:50,210 --> 00:23:46,919
live Nick

556
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:50,220
um well I think um look I'm gonna stop

557
00:23:54,169 --> 00:23:52,020
this and see Bigfoot is a real Flesh and

558
00:23:56,390 --> 00:23:54,179
Blood animal that has a psychic ability

559
00:24:02,289 --> 00:23:56,400
to Transit dimensions and comes to ours

560
00:24:02,299 --> 00:24:07,730
that's Dawn moving back on

561
00:24:12,110 --> 00:24:10,190
I'm down for that no it's a really

562
00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:12,120
interesting thing because

563
00:24:19,010 --> 00:24:15,780
um Scots traces that and the other the

564
00:24:20,450 --> 00:24:19,020
other strong cultural force with that

565
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:20,460
that's interesting that makes me when

566
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:22,500
you said about Louise Orion getting her

567
00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:24,240
degree first

568
00:24:33,649 --> 00:24:31,250
messaging in the early spiritualist

569
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:33,659
because at that point we still had women

570
00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:35,039
couldn't hold property they couldn't

571
00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:37,620
vote a lot of the mediums were women and

572
00:24:41,810 --> 00:24:39,360
a lot of

573
00:24:45,230 --> 00:24:41,820
the spirits were you know correctly

574
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:45,240
advocating for a fit more fair and equal

575
00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:48,480
society and you know even

576
00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:50,100
um

577
00:24:54,049 --> 00:24:52,320
I think I think but I also think that

578
00:24:55,909 --> 00:24:54,059
brings on some of the we we want to have

579
00:24:58,850 --> 00:24:55,919
some of the hostility and some of the we

580
00:25:00,409 --> 00:24:58,860
want to have scientific proof of it but

581
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,419
I haven't read anyone discuss that

582
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:02,640
outside of Scots that's an excellent

583
00:25:08,450 --> 00:25:04,740
book he does not believe in this stuff

584
00:25:09,890 --> 00:25:08,460
he is just kind of like this is the the

585
00:25:12,770 --> 00:25:09,900
actual

586
00:25:15,710 --> 00:25:12,780
beliefs of people were irrational bought

587
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:15,720
the um sociological forces behind them

588
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:17,340
he goes up through the early internet

589
00:25:24,110 --> 00:25:19,559
that's it's a really interesting thing

590
00:25:26,870 --> 00:25:24,120
but that wireless with radio both the

591
00:25:29,149 --> 00:25:26,880
Telegraph and the radio were both sort

592
00:25:31,010 --> 00:25:29,159
of unprecedented

593
00:25:33,409 --> 00:25:31,020
um really kind of the First Technology

594
00:25:35,690 --> 00:25:33,419
you couldn't see you couldn't it's like

595
00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:35,700
it's it really appeared magic to people

596
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:37,980
so

597
00:25:45,289 --> 00:25:43,380
that's um definitely because it it

598
00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:45,299
reminds it just makes me think you are

599
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:46,740
like our level of scientific

600
00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:48,960
understanding wasn't quite what it was

601
00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:50,340
now so of course we're going to look at

602
00:25:55,310 --> 00:25:52,020
whether like yeah these mediums right

603
00:25:57,649 --> 00:25:55,320
really have something going on here

604
00:26:01,690 --> 00:25:59,510
this up because they

605
00:26:05,090 --> 00:26:01,700
because then uh

606
00:26:08,090 --> 00:26:05,100
a hole and just like shelves of

607
00:26:11,149 --> 00:26:08,100
dissertations and and like research that

608
00:26:14,090 --> 00:26:11,159
people have written about the um the

609
00:26:17,450 --> 00:26:14,100
ways in which mediumship especially

610
00:26:19,789 --> 00:26:17,460
during that time allowed women to sort

611
00:26:23,870 --> 00:26:19,799
of Break Free of the constraints of what

612
00:26:26,269 --> 00:26:23,880
was proper behavior proper talk

613
00:26:28,909 --> 00:26:26,279
um some of them even had like handlers

614
00:26:30,649 --> 00:26:28,919
like the mediums the mediums that got

615
00:26:33,230 --> 00:26:30,659
more popular

616
00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:33,240
um would have like sort of a

617
00:26:36,890 --> 00:26:35,520
you might call it like a chaperone or

618
00:26:39,289 --> 00:26:36,900
something

619
00:26:41,269 --> 00:26:39,299
um and and a decent amount of them were

620
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:41,279
like female and so I feel like it was

621
00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:44,400
you know some sort of like uh many of

622
00:26:48,169 --> 00:26:46,140
them were probably some sort of romantic

623
00:26:52,130 --> 00:26:48,179
relationships as well and and that

624
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:52,140
allowed them to sort of live that life

625
00:26:56,750 --> 00:26:55,020
um during a time that you know it wasn't

626
00:26:57,909 --> 00:26:56,760
encouraged

627
00:27:00,830 --> 00:26:57,919
um

628
00:27:03,049 --> 00:27:00,840
fascinating stuff yeah there's a lot of

629
00:27:05,269 --> 00:27:03,059
so fascinating women like becoming new

630
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:05,279
spiritual leaders and and cultural

631
00:27:08,930 --> 00:27:06,960
leaders from from that perspective it is

632
00:27:11,750 --> 00:27:08,940
really interesting but yeah that's what

633
00:27:13,430 --> 00:27:11,760
was going on with theosophy right I mean

634
00:27:15,169 --> 00:27:13,440
a lot of these like emergent

635
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:15,179
spirituality is

636
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:16,640
um were led by women Christian Science

637
00:27:22,610 --> 00:27:20,159
also women founded in lead uh

638
00:27:23,769 --> 00:27:22,620
theosophical Society

639
00:27:26,210 --> 00:27:23,779
um

640
00:27:28,090 --> 00:27:26,220
Lisa did quite a bit of her own work

641
00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:28,100
correct

642
00:27:34,010 --> 00:27:31,200
yeah yeah when they were

643
00:27:36,409 --> 00:27:34,020
like because I uh

644
00:27:38,570 --> 00:27:36,419
I've taken I've taken one class on that

645
00:27:41,390 --> 00:27:38,580
Rhine Institute online actually for some

646
00:27:42,529 --> 00:27:41,400
reason think of Louisa before I think of

647
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:42,539
JB

648
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:45,120
love it yeah

649
00:27:56,750 --> 00:27:52,909
they oh I'm sorry no so they've got to

650
00:27:58,970 --> 00:27:56,760
Duke and kind of uh kind of took over

651
00:28:02,330 --> 00:27:58,980
what they were uh what the cycle or

652
00:28:04,250 --> 00:28:02,340
psychical Society was doing what um was

653
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,260
was pear around yeah or did that come

654
00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:06,320
after the Princeton

655
00:28:11,450 --> 00:28:09,120
engineering anomalies oh which is so

656
00:28:14,169 --> 00:28:11,460
freaking fascinating so cool all right

657
00:28:19,130 --> 00:28:14,179
yeah was it yeah was that after yeah

658
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:19,140
okay yeah but um yeah they they uh they

659
00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:20,880
were from the parapsychological

660
00:28:24,830 --> 00:28:22,320
perspective trying to bring that into

661
00:28:25,930 --> 00:28:24,840
the lab and well I personally think that

662
00:28:29,870 --> 00:28:25,940
even

663
00:28:32,690 --> 00:28:29,880
just your average psychology is kind of

664
00:28:34,130 --> 00:28:32,700
a hard thing to do science on you know

665
00:28:35,330 --> 00:28:34,140
just because there are so many different

666
00:28:36,830 --> 00:28:35,340
uh

667
00:28:40,190 --> 00:28:36,840
so many different variables that are

668
00:28:43,310 --> 00:28:40,200
hard to um calculate for so too it it

669
00:28:44,930 --> 00:28:43,320
seemed was uh parapsychological research

670
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:44,940
and experimentation

671
00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:47,340
um this is where zener cards were born

672
00:28:50,149 --> 00:28:49,020
and if anybody listening doesn't know

673
00:28:51,590 --> 00:28:50,159
what those are if you remember the

674
00:28:53,330 --> 00:28:51,600
opening scene of Ghostbusters where

675
00:28:54,769 --> 00:28:53,340
Peter Peter Venkman Bill Murray's

676
00:28:56,990 --> 00:28:54,779
character is testing that a couple and

677
00:28:58,970 --> 00:28:57,000
shocking them those are zener cards and

678
00:29:02,450 --> 00:28:58,980
they kind of came out of

679
00:29:05,690 --> 00:29:02,460
um I think card guessing originally came

680
00:29:06,830 --> 00:29:05,700
came about uh prior to JB Ryan coming to

681
00:29:09,409 --> 00:29:06,840
Duke right there was a there was a

682
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,419
predecessor there oh yeah um who didn't

683
00:29:12,710 --> 00:29:11,279
like the results he was getting and then

684
00:29:17,149 --> 00:29:12,720
the zenior cards were developed later

685
00:29:18,049 --> 00:29:17,159
right yes yes they and they produced a

686
00:29:22,549 --> 00:29:18,059
lot of

687
00:29:24,909 --> 00:29:22,559
there too what like what did they find

688
00:29:28,610 --> 00:29:24,919
in that in that research

689
00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:28,620
okay so yes I'm so glad you brought up

690
00:29:34,310 --> 00:29:31,320
that there were other

691
00:29:35,570 --> 00:29:34,320
cards prior to like the zener cards

692
00:29:39,889 --> 00:29:35,580
which

693
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:39,899
um I think are uh more well-known that

694
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:43,200
uh was developed with uh JB Ryan and one

695
00:29:46,970 --> 00:29:46,320
of the gentlemen at Duke Carl zenner

696
00:29:50,510 --> 00:29:46,980
um

697
00:29:51,110 --> 00:29:50,520
but prior to that they're

698
00:29:53,750 --> 00:29:51,120
um

699
00:29:56,269 --> 00:29:53,760
uh similar the similar sort of like you

700
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,279
know fashion of it like cards with um

701
00:30:01,130 --> 00:29:58,080
people's names

702
00:30:03,350 --> 00:30:01,140
written on it like first names there

703
00:30:06,350 --> 00:30:03,360
were cards with

704
00:30:08,990 --> 00:30:06,360
um just letters of the alphabet there

705
00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:09,000
were cards like numbers

706
00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:11,580
um all sorts of different like this the

707
00:30:17,810 --> 00:30:15,000
sort of same Vibe as what eventually led

708
00:30:21,169 --> 00:30:17,820
to the zener cards

709
00:30:22,909 --> 00:30:21,179
um but I remember hearing one of the

710
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:22,919
stories of like research that they did

711
00:30:29,389 --> 00:30:25,500
with like the cards

712
00:30:33,409 --> 00:30:29,399
um involved this student Hubert Pierce

713
00:30:36,769 --> 00:30:33,419
who was like yeah you've okay ring in a

714
00:30:41,149 --> 00:30:36,779
bell yes isn't that book Nick

715
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:41,159
which book the um what's it called the

716
00:30:44,990 --> 00:30:43,500
one by Stacy horn I've read more than

717
00:30:48,049 --> 00:30:45,000
two books I don't Oh Stacy horn that's

718
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:48,059
uh like it's unbelievable unbelievable

719
00:30:53,210 --> 00:30:51,600
yeah sorry Courtney keep going uh I'm so

720
00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:53,220
glad he's in that book I haven't had a

721
00:30:58,730 --> 00:30:55,140
chance to read that oh it's pretty good

722
00:31:00,710 --> 00:30:58,740
it's very good yeah sorry no no I can

723
00:31:02,269 --> 00:31:00,720
like see the cover in my head with like

724
00:31:08,389 --> 00:31:02,279
yeah

725
00:31:10,730 --> 00:31:08,399
um sort of like a a star student uh for

726
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,740
a bit at the Duke parapsychology Labs

727
00:31:16,070 --> 00:31:12,960
who was a student who heard about the

728
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:16,080
work there got involved and and um did

729
00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:19,020
some uh did some experiments with the

730
00:31:25,909 --> 00:31:23,220
cards and in in one study got 25 in a

731
00:31:28,510 --> 00:31:25,919
row like called 25 in a row correctly

732
00:31:30,889 --> 00:31:28,520
and the odds are just like some

733
00:31:33,169 --> 00:31:30,899
astronomically large number that I

734
00:31:35,690 --> 00:31:33,179
cannot even fathom looking at

735
00:31:38,930 --> 00:31:35,700
like in print like even with its I mean

736
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:38,940
it's just unreal so yeah a lot of the

737
00:31:44,149 --> 00:31:41,760
early work had to do with um

738
00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:44,159
yeah like using those Center cards a lot

739
00:31:49,149 --> 00:31:47,100
of the early work involved

740
00:31:51,409 --> 00:31:49,159
um hypnotic States

741
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:51,419
but yeah Hubert Pierce like always

742
00:31:55,130 --> 00:31:53,460
stands out to me when people like ask

743
00:31:57,049 --> 00:31:55,140
like so what did they do what did they

744
00:31:59,570 --> 00:31:57,059
find

745
00:32:02,810 --> 00:31:59,580
I think that a lot of a lot of the

746
00:32:04,190 --> 00:32:02,820
results uh haven't been I don't you hear

747
00:32:06,889 --> 00:32:04,200
a lot that they have not been replicated

748
00:32:08,690 --> 00:32:06,899
but have they been tested even or tried

749
00:32:11,090 --> 00:32:08,700
to be replicated in different places I

750
00:32:13,669 --> 00:32:11,100
know there's um there's really very few

751
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:13,679
uh institutions that will even be

752
00:32:17,870 --> 00:32:15,360
willing to do this anymore but do you

753
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:17,880
know if any of the uh that early Duke

754
00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:20,580
got replicated Maybe by some later

755
00:32:25,490 --> 00:32:23,940
groups perhaps even pair or um because I

756
00:32:27,169 --> 00:32:25,500
know I know that several people actually

757
00:32:29,389 --> 00:32:27,179
have graduated out of these programs

758
00:32:31,549 --> 00:32:29,399
with parapsychology degrees like Jeffrey

759
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:31,559
mishlov has one I think I think she has

760
00:32:38,510 --> 00:32:34,440
a parapsychologist yeah

761
00:32:40,730 --> 00:32:38,520
there's not many left though no yes like

762
00:32:43,130 --> 00:32:40,740
I think you say like that like Hanson

763
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:43,140
has a parapsychology degree that came

764
00:32:49,610 --> 00:32:44,220
out of there

765
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:53,510
yeah it is um oh sorry go ahead no if

766
00:32:56,710 --> 00:32:54,960
they bring back a program I'll go back

767
00:32:59,830 --> 00:32:56,720
to school and get it

768
00:33:02,990 --> 00:32:59,840
but I think that was the thing it was

769
00:33:04,970 --> 00:33:03,000
from reading about the experiments in

770
00:33:06,110 --> 00:33:04,980
Hansen's book

771
00:33:09,409 --> 00:33:06,120
um

772
00:33:11,930 --> 00:33:09,419
I think that people did ex like they

773
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:11,940
were as I think one of the things

774
00:33:15,409 --> 00:33:13,440
um going back to that first question is

775
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:15,419
like they were really introducing

776
00:33:19,789 --> 00:33:18,360
scientific rigor to the process which is

777
00:33:21,769 --> 00:33:19,799
what you were saying like different than

778
00:33:22,909 --> 00:33:21,779
going out ghost hunting you know ghost

779
00:33:24,830 --> 00:33:22,919
hunting is more of like a personal

780
00:33:27,769 --> 00:33:24,840
experience

781
00:33:29,210 --> 00:33:27,779
um and I think a lot of us know that um

782
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:29,220
like

783
00:33:34,789 --> 00:33:33,120
in public you could do Mentalist kind of

784
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:34,799
tricks that you can duplicate like a

785
00:33:39,470 --> 00:33:37,440
card magician can duplicate any kind

786
00:33:41,810 --> 00:33:39,480
like there's a lot of ESP mind reading

787
00:33:45,409 --> 00:33:41,820
tricks so there and I think

788
00:33:48,110 --> 00:33:45,419
um Duke try try to up like even up the

789
00:33:50,169 --> 00:33:48,120
rigor I know there's some

790
00:33:53,330 --> 00:33:50,179
um like you know people

791
00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:53,340
debunkers were not satisfied with the

792
00:33:57,409 --> 00:33:55,140
with what the Ryan's did in terms of

793
00:34:00,110 --> 00:33:57,419
scientific rigor now I say debunkers

794
00:34:01,909 --> 00:34:00,120
will never be never be satisfied no

795
00:34:03,590 --> 00:34:01,919
matter what but

796
00:34:06,649 --> 00:34:03,600
because that's the nature of a debunker

797
00:34:08,270 --> 00:34:06,659
versus a skeptic but I I think I don't

798
00:34:10,730 --> 00:34:08,280
know if they've been duplicated but I

799
00:34:12,409 --> 00:34:10,740
think similar experiments have been done

800
00:34:16,070 --> 00:34:12,419
with

801
00:34:17,690 --> 00:34:16,080
higher rigor but I also think again it's

802
00:34:20,210 --> 00:34:17,700
like the

803
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:20,220
it's the taint of the Paranormal

804
00:34:24,829 --> 00:34:22,260
you know you have to be we're doing we

805
00:34:26,889 --> 00:34:24,839
need to be doing serious research on

806
00:34:30,889 --> 00:34:26,899
serious things

807
00:34:32,690 --> 00:34:30,899
and not this

808
00:34:33,710 --> 00:34:32,700
and also

809
00:34:36,349 --> 00:34:33,720
um

810
00:34:38,030 --> 00:34:36,359
I sort of also think that dovetails into

811
00:34:41,570 --> 00:34:38,040
the kind of the emergent

812
00:34:44,450 --> 00:34:41,580
um sociology sociology of science that

813
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:44,460
people are actually studying more of of

814
00:34:50,389 --> 00:34:48,000
you know like how the how the biases

815
00:34:52,129 --> 00:34:50,399
of experimenters not just determine the

816
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:52,139
outcome of experience but even like the

817
00:34:55,909 --> 00:34:53,760
course of what they're doing in the

818
00:34:57,650 --> 00:34:55,919
first place which I know scientists

819
00:35:01,609 --> 00:34:57,660
don't like but

820
00:35:03,230 --> 00:35:01,619
well I have some thoughts but I just I

821
00:35:05,329 --> 00:35:03,240
do want to ask I do want to make space

822
00:35:08,650 --> 00:35:05,339
Leah because I feel like there I saw you

823
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:08,660
maybe having some thoughts or reactions

824
00:35:13,990 --> 00:35:11,520
well so one of the things I come back to

825
00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,000
with this subject pretty often

826
00:35:19,370 --> 00:35:16,800
is the

827
00:35:23,990 --> 00:35:19,380
um just in a broad General sense akin to

828
00:35:28,190 --> 00:35:26,450
I I and I have said things like this

829
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:28,200
before on the show much to people's eye

830
00:35:32,870 --> 00:35:30,720
or kind of the the limitations of

831
00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:32,880
scientific methodology to explore and

832
00:35:36,589 --> 00:35:34,740
evaluate this particular kind of subject

833
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:36,599
and I say that because almost everybody

834
00:35:40,910 --> 00:35:38,160
has some kind of synchronistic

835
00:35:42,710 --> 00:35:40,920
experience or telepathic experience uh

836
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:42,720
throughout their lives and the notion

837
00:35:48,530 --> 00:35:45,839
that these experiences are lab

838
00:35:50,390 --> 00:35:48,540
reproducible to me it seems a little bit

839
00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:50,400
of a long voter draw because many of

840
00:35:54,010 --> 00:35:52,740
them occur under

841
00:35:59,270 --> 00:35:54,020
um

842
00:36:01,130 --> 00:35:59,280
simply cannot be replicated right

843
00:36:03,109 --> 00:36:01,140
um in a lab environment and that was

844
00:36:06,349 --> 00:36:03,119
really all I was going to say is that um

845
00:36:08,329 --> 00:36:06,359
part of like the the very woo indulging

846
00:36:09,470 --> 00:36:08,339
side of me is basically like science is

847
00:36:12,050 --> 00:36:09,480
never going to be able to do anything

848
00:36:13,849 --> 00:36:12,060
directly to demonstrate this stuff like

849
00:36:15,650 --> 00:36:13,859
we can talk about it from a folklore or

850
00:36:17,030 --> 00:36:15,660
anthropological sociological Etc

851
00:36:18,109 --> 00:36:17,040
perspective but the idea that like

852
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,119
you're going to get statistically

853
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:20,640
significant performance in a closed

854
00:36:24,490 --> 00:36:23,520
system the of a lab setting

855
00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:24,500
um

856
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,760
that seems like kind of barking up the

857
00:36:31,430 --> 00:36:28,560
wrong tree on this subject but that's

858
00:36:33,829 --> 00:36:31,440
just me editorializing I didn't make

859
00:36:35,990 --> 00:36:33,839
similar comments to

860
00:36:38,450 --> 00:36:36,000
um Regular psychological experimentation

861
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,460
too I mean like how many facts

862
00:36:42,109 --> 00:36:40,320
affect someone's Behavior you know how

863
00:36:44,569 --> 00:36:42,119
many lurking variables are there in any

864
00:36:48,109 --> 00:36:44,579
psychological experiment

865
00:36:53,230 --> 00:36:50,630
in Psychiatry right the whole medical

866
00:36:56,630 --> 00:36:53,240
pathology pathology

867
00:36:59,690 --> 00:36:56,640
pathologizing of mental health right is

868
00:37:02,089 --> 00:36:59,700
very much an artifact of trying to

869
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:02,099
demonstrate the legitimacy of psychology

870
00:37:08,030 --> 00:37:06,240
and Psychiatry right and um I I think uh

871
00:37:09,770 --> 00:37:08,040
and I've certainly spoken about this you

872
00:37:12,109 --> 00:37:09,780
know I think the sort of Western

873
00:37:13,609 --> 00:37:12,119
clinical Traditions inclination to

874
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:13,619
pathology is pretty normal human

875
00:37:20,030 --> 00:37:16,740
experiences right like you know

876
00:37:21,349 --> 00:37:20,040
um it is not only to our detriment

877
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:21,359
um but

878
00:37:28,190 --> 00:37:25,700
um also fails to provide non medical

879
00:37:30,589 --> 00:37:28,200
non-pathology interventions or

880
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,599
integration processes to help understand

881
00:37:35,510 --> 00:37:32,640
and metabolize these kinds of

882
00:37:37,250 --> 00:37:35,520
experiences so put another way I talk a

883
00:37:39,470 --> 00:37:37,260
lot on the show Courtney about spiritual

884
00:37:41,329 --> 00:37:39,480
emergence uh an emergent phenomenology

885
00:37:43,130 --> 00:37:41,339
and this idea that like lots of people

886
00:37:45,290 --> 00:37:43,140
have these experiences and if you go to

887
00:37:46,069 --> 00:37:45,300
a standard issue psychiatrist they're

888
00:37:48,050 --> 00:37:46,079
going to pump you full of

889
00:37:49,550 --> 00:37:48,060
benzodiazepines and mood stabilizers to

890
00:37:51,589 --> 00:37:49,560
knock you out of the experience but then

891
00:37:53,290 --> 00:37:51,599
you have other other practitioners

892
00:37:55,370 --> 00:37:53,300
including like

893
00:37:57,050 --> 00:37:55,380
if we're going to draw it specifically

894
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:57,060
on doctors but even just like spiritual

895
00:38:01,190 --> 00:37:58,560
Traditions

896
00:38:03,890 --> 00:38:01,200
um that basically you see these as an

897
00:38:06,109 --> 00:38:03,900
artifact of particular spiritual or

898
00:38:08,210 --> 00:38:06,119
social or cultural processes and they're

899
00:38:10,510 --> 00:38:08,220
meant to be supported and integrated

900
00:38:14,210 --> 00:38:10,520
rather than just sort of

901
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:14,220
anesthetized out of existence

902
00:38:18,050 --> 00:38:15,599
I

903
00:38:20,150 --> 00:38:18,060
oh you just ended on such a sound bite

904
00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:20,160
that was so good it like got me right in

905
00:38:22,750 --> 00:38:21,420
my feels

906
00:38:26,329 --> 00:38:22,760
um

907
00:38:28,990 --> 00:38:26,339
I am loving this conversation so one of

908
00:38:33,770 --> 00:38:29,000
the one of the things that I love about

909
00:38:36,170 --> 00:38:33,780
like highlighting the work that was done

910
00:38:38,930 --> 00:38:36,180
like at the Duke parapsychology labs and

911
00:38:41,990 --> 00:38:38,940
elsewhere is that they're

912
00:38:44,270 --> 00:38:42,000
I do think their methods were pretty

913
00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:44,280
rigorous like these people knew what

914
00:38:49,010 --> 00:38:46,560
they were doing they they knew

915
00:38:50,510 --> 00:38:49,020
statistical you know measures they knew

916
00:38:53,089 --> 00:38:50,520
what it meant for something to be

917
00:38:56,230 --> 00:38:53,099
statistically significant and in some of

918
00:38:59,750 --> 00:38:56,240
their studies they did find

919
00:39:03,890 --> 00:38:59,760
statistically significant results for

920
00:39:06,170 --> 00:39:03,900
things like you know extra sensory

921
00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:06,180
perception or or basically these like

922
00:39:08,810 --> 00:39:07,980
Hubert Pierce like that should not have

923
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:08,820
happened

924
00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:11,280
regardless of what it was I mean it's

925
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:13,740
definitely anomalous

926
00:39:19,490 --> 00:39:16,320
um but it it it shouldn't have happened

927
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,500
and what I think is really cool I I just

928
00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:21,599
think it's really cool that you can like

929
00:39:27,290 --> 00:39:24,660
access research articles where people

930
00:39:29,870 --> 00:39:27,300
are like scientists and researchers are

931
00:39:31,849 --> 00:39:29,880
like hey we wanna we wanna design a

932
00:39:35,930 --> 00:39:31,859
scientific scientific experiment about

933
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,940
something weird uh and woo and hey we're

934
00:39:39,349 --> 00:39:37,440
gonna we're gonna be pretty rigorous

935
00:39:41,270 --> 00:39:39,359
about it we're gonna maintain the same

936
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:41,280
standards that our colleagues over in

937
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:42,900
wherever

938
00:39:48,349 --> 00:39:46,320
are are applying to their fields

939
00:39:51,650 --> 00:39:48,359
that just don't have the stigma of The

940
00:39:53,150 --> 00:39:51,660
Fringe placed upon them and

941
00:39:55,310 --> 00:39:53,160
um you know they did they did get

942
00:39:58,790 --> 00:39:55,320
statistically significant results but

943
00:40:02,810 --> 00:39:58,800
one of the things that parapsychologists

944
00:40:05,630 --> 00:40:02,820
then and now will readily you know talk

945
00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:05,640
about and admit is that like a lot of

946
00:40:13,790 --> 00:40:09,500
them believe their there is an inherent

947
00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:13,800
quality about like Psy like PSI or the

948
00:40:18,650 --> 00:40:15,180
phenomena or whatever you want to call

949
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:18,660
it that just does not make it suitable

950
00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:21,359
for replication in a laboratory setting

951
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:23,640
uh laboratory study setting and back

952
00:40:27,890 --> 00:40:26,160
then and still today there were so many

953
00:40:29,390 --> 00:40:27,900
who were just like we don't need to be

954
00:40:31,430 --> 00:40:29,400
in the lab

955
00:40:34,010 --> 00:40:31,440
studying this we need to be like

956
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:34,020
elsewhere like there was a oh gosh his

957
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:37,440
name is escaping me but a scholar with

958
00:40:42,890 --> 00:40:39,180
um in Japan who wrote for the Japanese

959
00:40:45,849 --> 00:40:42,900
Journal of parapsychology hmm uh did

960
00:40:49,970 --> 00:40:45,859
this study called Psy on a Mountaintop

961
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:49,980
and he basically was like I'm going to

962
00:40:55,670 --> 00:40:53,040
test I'm going to set up like uh I think

963
00:40:57,890 --> 00:40:55,680
it was like ESP related some sort of ESP

964
00:40:59,690 --> 00:40:57,900
related design whether it was with cards

965
00:41:02,810 --> 00:40:59,700
or something else he was like I'm gonna

966
00:41:04,730 --> 00:41:02,820
do it like in a laboratory setting that

967
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:04,740
is not very inspiring and is very cold

968
00:41:07,910 --> 00:41:06,480
and clinical and then I'm going to take

969
00:41:09,829 --> 00:41:07,920
those people and I'm going to send them

970
00:41:11,569 --> 00:41:09,839
up on a mountain that's beautiful and

971
00:41:12,589 --> 00:41:11,579
we've got this View and it's inspiring

972
00:41:14,950 --> 00:41:12,599
and we're going to do the same

973
00:41:17,210 --> 00:41:14,960
experiment and uh

974
00:41:19,370 --> 00:41:17,220
and of course like he got you know

975
00:41:21,170 --> 00:41:19,380
statistically significant results when

976
00:41:24,170 --> 00:41:21,180
they were like up on the Mountaintop but

977
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:24,180
but um I don't mean to like talk so like

978
00:41:28,990 --> 00:41:27,420
long but they this is why you're here

979
00:41:31,790 --> 00:41:29,000
yeah

980
00:41:34,609 --> 00:41:31,800
researchers like the researchers readily

981
00:41:36,589 --> 00:41:34,619
admit that like they they do think that

982
00:41:37,510 --> 00:41:36,599
there is something inherent I think a

983
00:41:39,589 --> 00:41:37,520
lot of

984
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:39,599
parapsychologists today will call it

985
00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:41,520
like the right person at the right place

986
00:41:47,810 --> 00:41:45,480
yes and and that cannot be captured

987
00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:47,820
easily in a lab and it cannot easily be

988
00:41:53,030 --> 00:41:51,060
replicated and Leah I think that you

989
00:41:55,069 --> 00:41:53,040
would really enjoy

990
00:41:57,470 --> 00:41:55,079
um one of the women in the

991
00:42:00,730 --> 00:41:57,480
parapsychology timeline who I wanted to

992
00:42:04,310 --> 00:42:00,740
learn about at Duke was uh Raya White

993
00:42:07,609 --> 00:42:04,320
and she worked uh at the Duke labs in

994
00:42:11,210 --> 00:42:07,619
the for uh like 40s 50s and 60s and was

995
00:42:13,849 --> 00:42:11,220
also a librarian and she became very

996
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:13,859
sort of like disenchanted with

997
00:42:19,370 --> 00:42:16,800
um the focus on doing like very Clinical

998
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:19,380
Laboratory studies and was like we need

999
00:42:23,450 --> 00:42:20,480
to

1000
00:42:25,250 --> 00:42:23,460
investigate the these like these

1001
00:42:26,750 --> 00:42:25,260
subjective experiences that people are

1002
00:42:29,750 --> 00:42:26,760
having and the impact that it's having

1003
00:42:32,630 --> 00:42:29,760
on their lives and so she actually

1004
00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:32,640
coined the phrase exceptional human

1005
00:42:37,790 --> 00:42:35,520
experiences hmm

1006
00:42:40,370 --> 00:42:37,800
um and was like you know this would be

1007
00:42:42,050 --> 00:42:40,380
like she saw the value not only in

1008
00:42:44,930 --> 00:42:42,060
clinical studies but like we need to

1009
00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:44,940
combine that also with more I think

1010
00:42:48,410 --> 00:42:46,980
somebody talked about it here in the

1011
00:42:51,290 --> 00:42:48,420
comments a more ethnologic

1012
00:42:53,870 --> 00:42:51,300
ethnographical like approach to

1013
00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:53,880
this phenomena is things are happening

1014
00:43:01,069 --> 00:42:56,220
it's impacting people in a powerful way

1015
00:43:03,290 --> 00:43:01,079
and that alone is worth capturing yes I

1016
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:03,300
want to um I'm seeing a couple of the

1017
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,160
comments one from Jack one and a couple

1018
00:43:09,770 --> 00:43:07,920
from Vancouver guy I think one of the

1019
00:43:11,750 --> 00:43:09,780
things about doing these experiments

1020
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:11,760
that and especially

1021
00:43:19,550 --> 00:43:14,000
um establishing the context of the time

1022
00:43:24,050 --> 00:43:19,560
I don't think that we today are aware of

1023
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:24,060
how influential spiritualism was and how

1024
00:43:28,609 --> 00:43:26,640
prevalent belief in the Supernatural was

1025
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:28,619
and how many people

1026
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:31,040
um in the public eye

1027
00:43:36,410 --> 00:43:34,740
were making claims to have Supernatural

1028
00:43:38,569 --> 00:43:36,420
power and

1029
00:43:42,950 --> 00:43:38,579
um what we would call psychic ability

1030
00:43:46,190 --> 00:43:42,960
now like this was a much larger societal

1031
00:43:49,190 --> 00:43:46,200
Force than it is today and I also see

1032
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:49,200
like I'm just going to say like

1033
00:43:55,730 --> 00:43:52,800
um very very nicely the F Skinwalker

1034
00:43:58,250 --> 00:43:55,740
Ranch that is Skinwalker Ranch to

1035
00:44:01,309 --> 00:43:58,260
science is the same thing as what like

1036
00:44:04,370 --> 00:44:01,319
professional wrestling is to actual

1037
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:04,380
Combat Sports okay Skinwalker Ranch is

1038
00:44:09,829 --> 00:44:06,720
fun I watched the first two seasons of

1039
00:44:13,069 --> 00:44:09,839
it it is a goofy TV show with the cast

1040
00:44:16,550 --> 00:44:13,079
of reoccurring characters that go and

1041
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:16,560
like and they are basically doing like

1042
00:44:21,470 --> 00:44:19,440
what I do and I'm like I'm going to go

1043
00:44:24,109 --> 00:44:21,480
have mad scientist time I'm going to

1044
00:44:27,849 --> 00:44:24,119
shoot some lasers in my backyard I am

1045
00:44:30,650 --> 00:44:27,859
going into your goggles

1046
00:44:34,309 --> 00:44:30,660
and I'm gonna go blow some [\h__\h] off I

1047
00:44:37,250 --> 00:44:34,319
got a rocket like and that is fun just

1048
00:44:41,210 --> 00:44:37,260
like like you know like perf like it's

1049
00:44:43,490 --> 00:44:41,220
TV just like pro wrestling can be fun

1050
00:44:45,230 --> 00:44:43,500
those people are not really fighting and

1051
00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:45,240
I'm sorry if this is the first time

1052
00:44:52,730 --> 00:44:48,740
you've heard that to anyone but that is

1053
00:44:54,170 --> 00:44:52,740
like you can come to terms with it I I

1054
00:44:58,790 --> 00:44:54,180
um

1055
00:45:00,530 --> 00:44:58,800
I I really but it is like I also think

1056
00:45:02,569 --> 00:45:00,540
one of the things now

1057
00:45:03,950 --> 00:45:02,579
um with with science and I think I we

1058
00:45:05,809 --> 00:45:03,960
talked about this because the last time

1059
00:45:08,630 --> 00:45:05,819
I was on for a show I was talking about

1060
00:45:12,109 --> 00:45:08,640
Dean Rayden and I'm like satisfactual

1061
00:45:12,650 --> 00:45:12,119
Psy is a statistical proven reality

1062
00:45:16,730 --> 00:45:12,660
um

1063
00:45:18,829 --> 00:45:16,740
we do not invest in non-commercial like

1064
00:45:20,809 --> 00:45:18,839
we're not like this is like a Star Trek

1065
00:45:23,450 --> 00:45:20,819
Society where we invest invest in pure

1066
00:45:26,210 --> 00:45:23,460
science they hit a point where they're

1067
00:45:30,589 --> 00:45:26,220
like I can't make psychola I can't make

1068
00:45:33,230 --> 00:45:30,599
side bombs I'm out like I'm done like I

1069
00:45:34,790 --> 00:45:33,240
don't like I don't care statistical like

1070
00:45:37,550 --> 00:45:34,800
a little like ah yeah you're right okay

1071
00:45:38,790 --> 00:45:37,560
it does like give me give me consumer

1072
00:45:40,569 --> 00:45:38,800
goods give me weapons

1073
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:40,579
[Music]

1074
00:45:47,990 --> 00:45:44,640
yeah so that's like all right screw this

1075
00:45:49,370 --> 00:45:48,000
um and I and I mean even in things like

1076
00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:49,380
this is something

1077
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,180
um I did not know until yesterday

1078
00:45:54,650 --> 00:45:53,520
reading another book I'm up to six now I

1079
00:45:56,510 --> 00:45:54,660
think

1080
00:45:59,990 --> 00:45:56,520
um the I know well you got to catch up

1081
00:46:03,470 --> 00:46:00,000
buddy the standard model

1082
00:46:05,990 --> 00:46:03,480
of quantum mechanics has not was not

1083
00:46:10,670 --> 00:46:06,000
proven until 2012.

1084
00:46:12,410 --> 00:46:10,680
so if you're reading like uh Hawking

1085
00:46:14,990 --> 00:46:12,420
like Stephen Hawking Brief History of

1086
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:15,000
Time and they're talking about all the

1087
00:46:20,510 --> 00:46:16,319
stuff in there like they didn't prove

1088
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:20,520
that until a couple years ago 11 years

1089
00:46:26,809 --> 00:46:23,520
ago so

1090
00:46:29,569 --> 00:46:26,819
I I mean um but I don't think anybody I

1091
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:29,579
don't think anybody in these things is

1092
00:46:33,829 --> 00:46:31,140
starting

1093
00:46:35,690 --> 00:46:33,839
in this case talking about the rhines

1094
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,700
and going through I also don't think I

1095
00:46:41,270 --> 00:46:37,680
also will say this like

1096
00:46:43,670 --> 00:46:41,280
like the only way to like be like uh

1097
00:46:46,370 --> 00:46:43,680
such as it is I think being like a

1098
00:46:49,550 --> 00:46:46,380
famous ufologist is somewhat of a like a

1099
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:49,560
dubious notion like but if you want to

1100
00:46:55,130 --> 00:46:53,280
like make some bucks you have to go you

1101
00:46:58,550 --> 00:46:55,140
have to like have that I'm having like

1102
00:47:00,770 --> 00:46:58,560
the ufology title belt okay like I'm

1103
00:47:02,829 --> 00:47:00,780
going like you know I'm gonna be like

1104
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:02,839
Jeremy Corbell

1105
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,000
Skinwalker Ranch this summer you know

1106
00:47:09,349 --> 00:47:08,160
and we're gonna we're gonna defend it

1107
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:09,359
but

1108
00:47:12,770 --> 00:47:11,040
you gotta watch out dude he knows

1109
00:47:14,290 --> 00:47:12,780
Quantum kung fu yeah I actually

1110
00:47:17,210 --> 00:47:14,300
shouldn't have said that

1111
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:17,220
she's gonna get you cool brother yeah he

1112
00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:18,960
is he's just going to like literally

1113
00:47:23,690 --> 00:47:21,900
Kung Fu me through time space yeah you

1114
00:47:26,329 --> 00:47:23,700
know I'm really glad you you brought up

1115
00:47:28,190 --> 00:47:26,339
Skinwalker Ranch Jay I kind of want to

1116
00:47:31,069 --> 00:47:28,200
um talk about TV ghost hunting a little

1117
00:47:34,250 --> 00:47:31,079
bit and how I think it does have an

1118
00:47:36,950 --> 00:47:34,260
origin in parapsychology but it's so

1119
00:47:39,050 --> 00:47:36,960
far removed at this point

1120
00:47:40,609 --> 00:47:39,060
um because I

1121
00:47:41,690 --> 00:47:40,619
Courtney when you got on you talked

1122
00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:41,700
about how

1123
00:47:44,210 --> 00:47:42,540
um

1124
00:47:46,309 --> 00:47:44,220
kind of these weird topics or with

1125
00:47:48,589 --> 00:47:46,319
probably a lot of us throughout our

1126
00:47:50,809 --> 00:47:48,599
whole lives I grew up watching sightings

1127
00:47:52,910 --> 00:47:50,819
and Unsolved Mysteries of course if

1128
00:47:54,829 --> 00:47:52,920
recall back in the 80s

1129
00:47:57,050 --> 00:47:54,839
um when they do ghost segments they'd

1130
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:57,060
bring in uh Dr William roll are you

1131
00:48:01,370 --> 00:47:59,460
familiar with him oh yeah so he would

1132
00:48:04,370 --> 00:48:01,380
come in and he was kind of working with

1133
00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:04,380
the theories of Michael Persinger if

1134
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:05,640
you're familiar with him he's kind of

1135
00:48:10,910 --> 00:48:08,460
the uh he's the god helmet guy he's the

1136
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:10,920
impetus of um the idea that

1137
00:48:16,190 --> 00:48:14,280
electromagnetic fields can give us a you

1138
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,200
know the sensation of a presence in the

1139
00:48:21,530 --> 00:48:18,480
room and cause hallucinations which is

1140
00:48:23,329 --> 00:48:21,540
something you do see in ghost shows now

1141
00:48:25,849 --> 00:48:23,339
um they would have him in and he was

1142
00:48:28,010 --> 00:48:25,859
testing that specific Theory but what I

1143
00:48:29,870 --> 00:48:28,020
think happened this is my own

1144
00:48:32,030 --> 00:48:29,880
speculation what I think happened is TV

1145
00:48:33,530 --> 00:48:32,040
producers saw that they saw the gadgets

1146
00:48:36,050 --> 00:48:33,540
that they were using because they were

1147
00:48:37,910 --> 00:48:36,060
doing Baseline EMF stuff

1148
00:48:40,370 --> 00:48:37,920
but they liked that so much and they

1149
00:48:43,010 --> 00:48:40,380
they saw you know that scene in uh

1150
00:48:44,510 --> 00:48:43,020
Poltergeist and and um Ghostbusters with

1151
00:48:47,809 --> 00:48:44,520
the pke meter

1152
00:48:50,569 --> 00:48:47,819
I think that TV producers have kind of

1153
00:48:52,730 --> 00:48:50,579
created a format which we now or which

1154
00:48:55,370 --> 00:48:52,740
which a lot of paranormal investigators

1155
00:48:57,170 --> 00:48:55,380
now will call science and I that kind of

1156
00:48:58,430 --> 00:48:57,180
traces back to Taps I don't know if you

1157
00:48:59,870 --> 00:48:58,440
watched Ghost Hunters back in the day

1158
00:49:03,530 --> 00:48:59,880
actually I think they're still on aren't

1159
00:49:06,349 --> 00:49:03,540
they but I think that's where these um

1160
00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:06,359
these kind of science-based paranormal

1161
00:49:09,950 --> 00:49:07,980
investigation with the gadgets taking

1162
00:49:12,050 --> 00:49:09,960
gadgets outside of their intended use

1163
00:49:14,089 --> 00:49:12,060
and looking for anomalies kind of

1164
00:49:16,970 --> 00:49:14,099
spurred off from that but but now it

1165
00:49:18,950 --> 00:49:16,980
feels like two completely separate camps

1166
00:49:21,050 --> 00:49:18,960
in my opinion you didn't you know what

1167
00:49:23,210 --> 00:49:21,060
I'm saying like the TV ghost hunting in

1168
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,220
actual parapsychology I think

1169
00:49:27,470 --> 00:49:25,920
are quite different at this point but

1170
00:49:28,750 --> 00:49:27,480
they all kind of came from a similar

1171
00:49:31,430 --> 00:49:28,760
Place

1172
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:31,440
yeah I would agree I think they're quite

1173
00:49:35,450 --> 00:49:32,400
different

1174
00:49:38,930 --> 00:49:35,460
um I think it's okay that they're

1175
00:49:42,290 --> 00:49:38,940
different and oh yeah um I think that it

1176
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,300
all kind of boils back to

1177
00:49:47,750 --> 00:49:44,640
a genuine curiosity about the world

1178
00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:47,760
around us and however that's gonna play

1179
00:49:52,190 --> 00:49:50,460
out in your life or however you want to

1180
00:49:54,650 --> 00:49:52,200
pursue it or the various ways that we as

1181
00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:54,660
humans like pursue it I think it's

1182
00:50:00,290 --> 00:49:56,700
really cool like for me it's always both

1183
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:00,300
and it's always both and and I think I

1184
00:50:05,870 --> 00:50:02,160
suspect probably for a lot of us here

1185
00:50:08,089 --> 00:50:05,880
too like I I love reading the scientific

1186
00:50:09,589 --> 00:50:08,099
like you know research studies just

1187
00:50:10,970 --> 00:50:09,599
because I think it's cool we live in a

1188
00:50:14,329 --> 00:50:10,980
world where we can read a research

1189
00:50:16,130 --> 00:50:14,339
article about psychokinesis but but also

1190
00:50:19,670 --> 00:50:16,140
it's like I don't

1191
00:50:22,250 --> 00:50:19,680
personally need science to tell me

1192
00:50:26,089 --> 00:50:22,260
figures and numbers for things that I

1193
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,099
like subjectively know to be true in my

1194
00:50:28,730 --> 00:50:27,839
own world

1195
00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:28,740
um

1196
00:50:36,770 --> 00:50:32,520
but yeah and Leah I thought I apologize

1197
00:50:39,770 --> 00:50:36,780
if I had started talking over you

1198
00:50:43,370 --> 00:50:39,780
oh no no not at all um

1199
00:50:44,630 --> 00:50:43,380
when we talk about the television Ghost

1200
00:50:46,910 --> 00:50:44,640
Hunters

1201
00:50:48,410 --> 00:50:46,920
um I also always think of how the

1202
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:48,420
introduction

1203
00:50:52,130 --> 00:50:50,160
Nick you've mentioned this this idea of

1204
00:50:55,250 --> 00:50:52,140
introducing scientific scientific

1205
00:50:58,150 --> 00:50:55,260
instruments into this practice is

1206
00:51:00,530 --> 00:50:58,160
basically a function of introducing

1207
00:51:04,190 --> 00:51:00,540
Electronics right like you introduce

1208
00:51:05,569 --> 00:51:04,200
like tape recorders or uh oscilloscopes

1209
00:51:07,069 --> 00:51:05,579
or whatever

1210
00:51:08,270 --> 00:51:07,079
um in order to legitimize it but the

1211
00:51:09,890 --> 00:51:08,280
other thing that always comes to mind as

1212
00:51:12,109 --> 00:51:09,900
well is sort of how this becomes tied up

1213
00:51:14,750 --> 00:51:12,119
in gender because like we tend to think

1214
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,760
of mediumship as very much a a female

1215
00:51:19,430 --> 00:51:16,800
focused practice

1216
00:51:20,990 --> 00:51:19,440
um not exhaustively but generally

1217
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:21,000
um and as a result kind of more

1218
00:51:24,710 --> 00:51:24,000
qualitative in nature more earthy in a

1219
00:51:27,410 --> 00:51:24,720
way

1220
00:51:29,510 --> 00:51:27,420
um but that the introduction of ghost

1221
00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:29,520
hunting on television with all these

1222
00:51:34,490 --> 00:51:31,980
little Electronics gadgets and things

1223
00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:34,500
the masculine coded things like science

1224
00:51:41,030 --> 00:51:37,980
and logic and rational thought uh and

1225
00:51:42,410 --> 00:51:41,040
all this is basically like a way I I

1226
00:51:44,329 --> 00:51:42,420
feel like there's a lot of gender stuff

1227
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,339
tied up in here I'm just kind of riffing

1228
00:51:47,569 --> 00:51:46,079
on this but I I do feel like this is a

1229
00:51:49,849 --> 00:51:47,579
real thing and I also think this ties

1230
00:51:51,410 --> 00:51:49,859
back to those uh theosophy and Christian

1231
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:51,420
Science and a lot of these emergent

1232
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:52,800
mystical movements and spiritual

1233
00:51:57,470 --> 00:51:54,480
movements also being experimented by

1234
00:52:00,410 --> 00:51:57,480
women right interesting um

1235
00:52:02,390 --> 00:52:00,420
yeah it oh this is such a fascinating

1236
00:52:04,089 --> 00:52:02,400
conversation

1237
00:52:06,470 --> 00:52:04,099
um because

1238
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,480
I don't I'm trying to like gather like

1239
00:52:10,370 --> 00:52:08,160
my thoughts first of all I want to

1240
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,380
acknowledge somebody earlier I think it

1241
00:52:15,530 --> 00:52:12,720
was V said that they grew up um in like

1242
00:52:17,150 --> 00:52:15,540
a Hindu household that you know the

1243
00:52:19,190 --> 00:52:17,160
supernatural which is like an inherent

1244
00:52:22,849 --> 00:52:19,200
part of life

1245
00:52:24,410 --> 00:52:22,859
um and I think that also like Leo you

1246
00:52:26,329 --> 00:52:24,420
were talking about gender

1247
00:52:28,329 --> 00:52:26,339
the Notions of gender and how they

1248
00:52:33,530 --> 00:52:28,339
impact our views of like the Paranormal

1249
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:33,540
also like culture and you know like that

1250
00:52:40,370 --> 00:52:37,200
also impacts our views and experiences

1251
00:52:43,069 --> 00:52:40,380
um with the Supernatural and

1252
00:52:45,770 --> 00:52:43,079
um I one of the things that I that I did

1253
00:52:49,609 --> 00:52:45,780
like in my the Encyclopedia of

1254
00:52:51,950 --> 00:52:49,619
parapsychology was I tried to make

1255
00:52:53,150 --> 00:52:51,960
tried to make an intentional effort at

1256
00:52:56,450 --> 00:52:53,160
highlighting

1257
00:52:59,329 --> 00:52:56,460
the international work of other people

1258
00:53:01,609 --> 00:52:59,339
um sometimes our conversations and and I

1259
00:53:04,730 --> 00:53:01,619
understand it it's not Insidious at all

1260
00:53:07,010 --> 00:53:04,740
but our conversations tend to sometimes

1261
00:53:10,190 --> 00:53:07,020
focus on efforts by the United Kingdom

1262
00:53:12,770 --> 00:53:10,200
and the United States but you know there

1263
00:53:14,829 --> 00:53:12,780
were researchers there were and there

1264
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:14,839
continued to be International

1265
00:53:20,109 --> 00:53:17,819
researchers and and also people all over

1266
00:53:23,630 --> 00:53:20,119
the world experiencing

1267
00:53:26,569 --> 00:53:23,640
phenomena and and uh viewing it and

1268
00:53:28,670 --> 00:53:26,579
making sense of it through their limited

1269
00:53:31,210 --> 00:53:28,680
experiences and cultures and genders and

1270
00:53:34,250 --> 00:53:31,220
so forth and so on

1271
00:53:36,910 --> 00:53:34,260
so oh yeah sorry oh I'm sorry go ahead

1272
00:53:41,870 --> 00:53:39,349
one of the things I think about with the

1273
00:53:44,210 --> 00:53:41,880
with the ghost the ghost shows with but

1274
00:53:48,650 --> 00:53:44,220
like Courtney you and I know a lot of

1275
00:53:51,530 --> 00:53:48,660
people that do ghost fun stuff like they

1276
00:53:53,690 --> 00:53:51,540
go to the haunted location and

1277
00:53:55,609 --> 00:53:53,700
do some mediumship or do an us this

1278
00:53:58,010 --> 00:53:55,619
method and do bring out the toys and

1279
00:54:01,069 --> 00:53:58,020
stuff I think

1280
00:54:02,569 --> 00:54:01,079
um well I say that because I actually

1281
00:54:05,210 --> 00:54:02,579
think

1282
00:54:07,190 --> 00:54:05,220
do it there's a difference like doing it

1283
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:07,200
yourself or the group of friends with a

1284
00:54:12,410 --> 00:54:09,720
thing like that is a like social

1285
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:12,420
phenomenon it is trying to interface

1286
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:14,640
with the unknown it is trying to have a

1287
00:54:18,970 --> 00:54:16,559
personal experience

1288
00:54:21,410 --> 00:54:18,980
um or a shared experience with people

1289
00:54:24,410 --> 00:54:21,420
and it's

1290
00:54:26,690 --> 00:54:24,420
um since we don't like we sort of live

1291
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:26,700
in uh for a lot of us and this is again

1292
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:29,280
a very North American perspective but

1293
00:54:33,290 --> 00:54:31,380
you know we we talk about we don't have

1294
00:54:36,349 --> 00:54:33,300
like kind of

1295
00:54:38,990 --> 00:54:36,359
um spirituality or Miracles things like

1296
00:54:42,230 --> 00:54:39,000
this in a daily life you can go out and

1297
00:54:45,049 --> 00:54:42,240
like have this experience where you can

1298
00:54:46,670 --> 00:54:45,059
touch the Untouchable for lack of a

1299
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:46,680
better way to put it now I think the

1300
00:54:53,809 --> 00:54:49,920
problem with the TV shows is the TV

1301
00:54:57,770 --> 00:54:53,819
shows again are pro wrestling the guys

1302
00:55:05,710 --> 00:54:57,780
on the TV shows are playing like we are

1303
00:55:12,589 --> 00:55:09,290
tonight going to prove the existence of

1304
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:12,599
life after death on this TV show on the

1305
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:16,319
Travel Channel please watch just and

1306
00:55:23,210 --> 00:55:19,440
that's kind of like the same thing like

1307
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,220
and they're really like so again like I

1308
00:55:26,750 --> 00:55:24,960
would say like going like no I don't

1309
00:55:28,910 --> 00:55:26,760
think anybody that goes like a strange

1310
00:55:30,589 --> 00:55:28,920
escapes or ghosts like a Waverly Hills

1311
00:55:32,750 --> 00:55:30,599
sanatorium or goes to the Mansfield

1312
00:55:34,309 --> 00:55:32,760
Reformatory in Ohio for a ghost thing

1313
00:55:36,049 --> 00:55:34,319
it's like this is it folks we're gonna

1314
00:55:38,510 --> 00:55:36,059
have this is like this is like when they

1315
00:55:41,390 --> 00:55:38,520
powered us like the the collider at CERN

1316
00:55:43,370 --> 00:55:41,400
I don't think anybody has that but I

1317
00:55:45,589 --> 00:55:43,380
feel like the the guys it's kind of

1318
00:55:47,510 --> 00:55:45,599
again on like the skin walker Ranch

1319
00:55:49,549 --> 00:55:47,520
thing we're gonna fire that one last

1320
00:55:52,250 --> 00:55:49,559
rocket

1321
00:55:54,170 --> 00:55:52,260
and this is like the alien is going to

1322
00:55:57,109 --> 00:55:54,180
be like you got us we're gonna calm down

1323
00:55:58,910 --> 00:55:57,119
and this is like there's you know but

1324
00:56:01,010 --> 00:55:58,920
it's it's just

1325
00:56:03,890 --> 00:56:01,020
um for lack of a better way to put it so

1326
00:56:05,750 --> 00:56:03,900
in the in the wrestling world the the

1327
00:56:09,890 --> 00:56:05,760
suspension of disbelief before it was

1328
00:56:11,630 --> 00:56:09,900
willful is a is um called kefabe

1329
00:56:14,690 --> 00:56:11,640
which comes from a little Carnival term

1330
00:56:18,410 --> 00:56:14,700
okay is that kfabe k-fabe well you know

1331
00:56:20,210 --> 00:56:18,420
what we could say to me sorry I brought

1332
00:56:24,970 --> 00:56:20,220
you into this nerdy conversation about

1333
00:56:30,049 --> 00:56:28,430
the psychology of pro wrestling is as

1334
00:56:32,380 --> 00:56:30,059
close to a unified theory for

1335
00:56:34,930 --> 00:56:32,390
understanding every everything

1336
00:56:38,390 --> 00:56:34,940
[Music]

1337
00:56:40,490 --> 00:56:38,400
I feel like if you when you start

1338
00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:40,500
there's like a lot of people that watch

1339
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:42,839
these shows there's a lot of people on

1340
00:56:47,809 --> 00:56:44,880
Twitter that have like they don't like

1341
00:56:49,309 --> 00:56:47,819
the the kfob element and I think some

1342
00:56:52,130 --> 00:56:49,319
people like do think maybe they're

1343
00:56:54,829 --> 00:56:52,140
they're going to prove it but I I just I

1344
00:56:57,650 --> 00:56:54,839
feel like I have a tremendous amount of

1345
00:57:00,470 --> 00:56:57,660
empathy and like support towards the

1346
00:57:02,390 --> 00:57:00,480
people that go do stuff like I'm gonna

1347
00:57:04,130 --> 00:57:02,400
get my like I'm gonna get some toys I'm

1348
00:57:06,890 --> 00:57:04,140
gonna go to Blinky like boxes oh yeah

1349
00:57:10,790 --> 00:57:06,900
and go try to have an experience versus

1350
00:57:13,730 --> 00:57:10,800
the the impose like seriousness of the

1351
00:57:16,309 --> 00:57:13,740
meta fiction of like see we're in season

1352
00:57:17,990 --> 00:57:16,319
five of ghost Bros you know the tanks

1353
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:18,000
running dry

1354
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,710
um

1355
00:57:29,630 --> 00:57:27,359
yeah I I was going to say so I'm reading

1356
00:57:31,730 --> 00:57:29,640
this book right now called

1357
00:57:33,410 --> 00:57:31,740
um how God becomes real and it's written

1358
00:57:37,549 --> 00:57:33,420
by an anthropologist and it's basically

1359
00:57:40,069 --> 00:57:37,559
about it's exploring effectively how

1360
00:57:41,809 --> 00:57:40,079
people form relationships with the

1361
00:57:44,030 --> 00:57:41,819
invisible other it's a really

1362
00:57:46,910 --> 00:57:44,040
interesting book and it keeps coming

1363
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:46,920
back to a few things one is that in the

1364
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:50,160
author it was embedded in and worked

1365
00:57:55,010 --> 00:57:51,839
with Evangelical Christian communities

1366
00:57:56,809 --> 00:57:55,020
in Africa India United States and then

1367
00:57:58,910 --> 00:57:56,819
also talks about other religions Judaism

1368
00:57:59,569 --> 00:57:58,920
Islam Buddhism Etc

1369
00:58:01,910 --> 00:57:59,579
um

1370
00:58:05,450 --> 00:58:01,920
and one of the things that is

1371
00:58:09,349 --> 00:58:05,460
continually talked about is that um

1372
00:58:11,210 --> 00:58:09,359
people need to deliberately decide

1373
00:58:12,829 --> 00:58:11,220
to cultivate this kind of relationship

1374
00:58:14,210 --> 00:58:12,839
it's not just like conferred upon them

1375
00:58:16,370 --> 00:58:14,220
they have to make the conscious decision

1376
00:58:17,930 --> 00:58:16,380
to cultivate this relationship some

1377
00:58:20,030 --> 00:58:17,940
people's relationships are much stronger

1378
00:58:21,589 --> 00:58:20,040
right out of the gate however everybody

1379
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:21,599
has to practice having those

1380
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:24,240
relationships so this is everything from

1381
00:58:29,329 --> 00:58:27,119
Wicca into Lima all the way through like

1382
00:58:31,549 --> 00:58:29,339
Evangelical Christianity like this is a

1383
00:58:34,069 --> 00:58:31,559
relationship that must be a deliberate

1384
00:58:37,010 --> 00:58:34,079
intentional practice the other thing

1385
00:58:38,150 --> 00:58:37,020
that is emphasized across practices is

1386
00:58:40,549 --> 00:58:38,160
basically

1387
00:58:43,130 --> 00:58:40,559
um learning it's sort of

1388
00:58:45,170 --> 00:58:43,140
um learning the code of how encounters

1389
00:58:45,829 --> 00:58:45,180
with the invisible other

1390
00:58:48,109 --> 00:58:45,839
um

1391
00:58:49,730 --> 00:58:48,119
manifest in one's life right because

1392
00:58:51,049 --> 00:58:49,740
they're things that in a purely secular

1393
00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:51,059
society we don't really attribute

1394
00:58:55,309 --> 00:58:52,799
anything to excuse me like for instance

1395
00:58:56,809 --> 00:58:55,319
like getting Goosebumps or chills or

1396
00:58:57,770 --> 00:58:56,819
intuition

1397
00:58:59,510 --> 00:58:57,780
um but they talk about how they

1398
00:59:01,010 --> 00:58:59,520
deliberate cultivation of these

1399
00:59:03,049 --> 00:59:01,020
encounters and practices with the

1400
00:59:04,309 --> 00:59:03,059
invisible others or invisible other or

1401
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:04,319
others

1402
00:59:12,829 --> 00:59:08,400
um basically uh teaches you

1403
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,839
uh like sensitizes you to how to listen

1404
00:59:17,450 --> 00:59:15,119
or kind of douse for these experiences

1405
00:59:20,569 --> 00:59:17,460
I'm very fascinated by this idea is

1406
00:59:22,490 --> 00:59:20,579
someone partly who like look off screen

1407
00:59:24,349 --> 00:59:22,500
super [\h__\h] woo like I think the world

1408
00:59:25,789 --> 00:59:24,359
and everything around us is talking to

1409
00:59:27,049 --> 00:59:25,799
us constantly like we're always in

1410
00:59:28,730 --> 00:59:27,059
conversation with it whether you're

1411
00:59:31,730 --> 00:59:28,740
aware of it or not

1412
00:59:35,210 --> 00:59:31,740
um yeah oh real woo yeah yeah

1413
00:59:36,950 --> 00:59:35,220
um but also um it just this idea that

1414
00:59:39,470 --> 00:59:36,960
these are practices that have to be

1415
00:59:41,569 --> 00:59:39,480
deliberately cultivated it's not just a

1416
00:59:44,630 --> 00:59:41,579
thing that happens it's a skill and like

1417
00:59:47,210 --> 00:59:44,640
any skill you know there's variability

1418
00:59:48,650 --> 00:59:47,220
is in capabilities so you have like

1419
00:59:50,450 --> 00:59:48,660
Olympic athletes and then you have guys

1420
00:59:52,130 --> 00:59:50,460
who like were picked last for Dodgeball

1421
00:59:53,930 --> 00:59:52,140
in high school

1422
00:59:57,230 --> 00:59:53,940
um yes that's why I haven't met the

1423
01:00:00,770 --> 00:59:57,240
invisible other too right yeah no it was

1424
01:00:03,049 --> 01:00:00,780
a two-season varsity athlete Nick and I

1425
01:00:04,849 --> 01:00:03,059
regularly commune with the Divine could

1426
01:00:06,410 --> 01:00:04,859
these perhaps be related

1427
01:00:12,049 --> 01:00:06,420
um

1428
01:00:13,370 --> 01:00:12,059
you know what what strikes me so much

1429
01:00:15,349 --> 01:00:13,380
about this book is that these are

1430
01:00:16,670 --> 01:00:15,359
practice this this is a talent or a

1431
01:00:18,289 --> 01:00:16,680
skill that can be deliberately

1432
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,299
cultivated and that this is generally

1433
01:00:21,289 --> 01:00:20,160
kind of universally acknowledged across

1434
01:00:22,549 --> 01:00:21,299
different religious and spiritual

1435
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:22,559
practices even though they don't use

1436
01:00:28,430 --> 01:00:24,799
that exact terminology

1437
01:00:32,210 --> 01:00:28,440
I well like every time you like end I'm

1438
01:00:33,770 --> 01:00:32,220
just like mic drop boom I I love this

1439
01:00:36,950 --> 01:00:33,780
because

1440
01:00:38,750 --> 01:00:36,960
I think also wrapped up in like what

1441
01:00:39,770 --> 01:00:38,760
what you were talking about here is like

1442
01:00:44,690 --> 01:00:39,780
it's

1443
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:44,700
making space for the ways that the

1444
01:00:48,069 --> 01:00:46,500
Paranormal the the phenomena the other

1445
01:00:53,569 --> 01:00:48,079
the invisible other

1446
01:00:55,789 --> 01:00:53,579
impacts us in our own lives and like I

1447
01:00:57,589 --> 01:00:55,799
always like to tell people like you

1448
01:00:59,450 --> 01:00:57,599
don't have to you don't have to qualify

1449
01:01:01,970 --> 01:00:59,460
your weirdness you know what I mean you

1450
01:01:03,650 --> 01:01:01,980
don't have to have the latest hottest

1451
01:01:07,549 --> 01:01:03,660
like gadgets if you want to though

1452
01:01:09,589 --> 01:01:07,559
that's totally cool just be weird man

1453
01:01:12,770 --> 01:01:09,599
um but like you don't have to do it a

1454
01:01:14,270 --> 01:01:12,780
certain way you don't have to

1455
01:01:16,490 --> 01:01:14,280
um you know only view it through a

1456
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:16,500
certain lens and and to Jay to get it

1457
01:01:22,010 --> 01:01:19,440
something that you said a second ago was

1458
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,020
um no I I don't necessarily think that

1459
01:01:27,470 --> 01:01:25,200
people who like go to you know to events

1460
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:27,480
like strange escapes or other things are

1461
01:01:31,789 --> 01:01:30,240
necessarily like going in expecting I'm

1462
01:01:33,289 --> 01:01:31,799
gonna Solve the Riddle I'm gonna get all

1463
01:01:35,210 --> 01:01:33,299
the answers but what I think they're

1464
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:35,220
going in expecting and what I think is

1465
01:01:41,150 --> 01:01:37,440
actually more beautiful is they're

1466
01:01:44,030 --> 01:01:41,160
expecting to have a poignant experience

1467
01:01:46,910 --> 01:01:44,040
of connection perhaps with the invisible

1468
01:01:50,270 --> 01:01:46,920
other or connection with other weirdos

1469
01:01:52,130 --> 01:01:50,280
and to me that's just like that's the

1470
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:52,140
beauty of it

1471
01:01:56,450 --> 01:01:54,720
and I think it's part of the reason I

1472
01:01:59,510 --> 01:01:56,460
was oh sorry

1473
01:02:01,250 --> 01:01:59,520
no please Courtney go ahead I was I

1474
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,260
think that that's part of the reason for

1475
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:03,599
the Paranormal in in our lives in this

1476
01:02:08,569 --> 01:02:05,760
world I I think there's a lot of reasons

1477
01:02:11,089 --> 01:02:08,579
but I think one of the reasons is that

1478
01:02:12,890 --> 01:02:11,099
it creates these connections it creates

1479
01:02:15,170 --> 01:02:12,900
meaning in our lives and it also like

1480
01:02:16,730 --> 01:02:15,180
we're all connected here and with the

1481
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:16,740
audience who was like commenting like

1482
01:02:20,930 --> 01:02:18,240
we're all connected here because we're

1483
01:02:22,670 --> 01:02:20,940
all weirdos and into this stuff and and

1484
01:02:24,230 --> 01:02:22,680
I think that that's the Paranormal just

1485
01:02:29,289 --> 01:02:24,240
sort of sitting back and being like yeah

1486
01:02:35,340 --> 01:02:32,390
the real phenomenon is the friends we

1487
01:02:39,289 --> 01:02:37,390
[Music]

1488
01:02:41,569 --> 01:02:39,299
I am

1489
01:02:44,089 --> 01:02:41,579
man I kind of lost my train of thought

1490
01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:44,099
I'm sorry

1491
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:46,980
no no it's fine this is this is this is

1492
01:02:49,730 --> 01:02:48,960
the nature of laggy internet

1493
01:02:52,490 --> 01:02:49,740
um

1494
01:02:54,829 --> 01:02:52,500
I I noticed some people in the in the

1495
01:02:57,230 --> 01:02:54,839
comments talking about Catholicism do

1496
01:03:00,049 --> 01:02:57,240
you know that in this field I mean is it

1497
01:03:01,549 --> 01:03:00,059
primarily kind of a secular field or or

1498
01:03:03,890 --> 01:03:01,559
do you do you see religious people

1499
01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:03,900
engaging with it too or like are these

1500
01:03:07,250 --> 01:03:05,640
ideas of

1501
01:03:09,650 --> 01:03:07,260
um you know religions and Faith as we

1502
01:03:10,910 --> 01:03:09,660
know it irreconcilable with uh with

1503
01:03:17,329 --> 01:03:10,920
these ideas of

1504
01:03:17,339 --> 01:03:20,809
anybody

1505
01:03:26,270 --> 01:03:23,150
I can hear you I'm wondering if uh

1506
01:03:28,910 --> 01:03:26,280
Courtney's internet is lagging oh sorry

1507
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:28,920
if it is no I am just like that was a

1508
01:03:36,950 --> 01:03:31,920
heavy question that I am no like okay

1509
01:03:38,270 --> 01:03:36,960
you were thinking yes so well I asked

1510
01:03:38,930 --> 01:03:38,280
this because

1511
01:03:40,549 --> 01:03:38,940
um

1512
01:03:42,349 --> 01:03:40,559
I'm the resident what people would call

1513
01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:42,359
a skeptic but I would say that I'm just

1514
01:03:46,490 --> 01:03:44,160
a proponent of the psychosocial social

1515
01:03:48,890 --> 01:03:46,500
hypothesis as it applies to different

1516
01:03:51,109 --> 01:03:48,900
French topics but I've I've always kind

1517
01:03:53,450 --> 01:03:51,119
of um and I'm gonna I can't remember his

1518
01:03:54,770 --> 01:03:53,460
name Eugene uh the man who was trying to

1519
01:03:57,470 --> 01:03:54,780
weigh the soul what was his name

1520
01:03:59,990 --> 01:03:57,480
McDougall does that sound familiar it's

1521
01:04:01,010 --> 01:04:00,000
where the the oh yeah like the 22 grams

1522
01:04:03,470 --> 01:04:01,020
or whatever

1523
01:04:05,089 --> 01:04:03,480
yeah I've always and I we've discussed

1524
01:04:07,609 --> 01:04:05,099
this before

1525
01:04:10,130 --> 01:04:07,619
um I see that as very similar as using

1526
01:04:11,390 --> 01:04:10,140
kind of the technology now and I see

1527
01:04:14,690 --> 01:04:11,400
that as kind of

1528
01:04:17,089 --> 01:04:14,700
um a secular search for the soul being

1529
01:04:19,250 --> 01:04:17,099
that like um uh whether it's

1530
01:04:20,990 --> 01:04:19,260
electromagnetic fields or any kind of

1531
01:04:22,670 --> 01:04:21,000
like spiritual energy coming out of

1532
01:04:24,829 --> 01:04:22,680
these things they kind of feel the same

1533
01:04:26,089 --> 01:04:24,839
role but from different perspectives I

1534
01:04:30,410 --> 01:04:26,099
just wonder if there's much cross over

1535
01:04:33,349 --> 01:04:30,420
there or not yes okay I see it now

1536
01:04:37,510 --> 01:04:33,359
um I yes sorry I'm like I'm like trying

1537
01:04:42,349 --> 01:04:40,309
I totally agree with you Nick I think

1538
01:04:45,589 --> 01:04:42,359
that that is something that like we

1539
01:04:48,049 --> 01:04:45,599
don't talk about often enough

1540
01:04:50,270 --> 01:04:48,059
um is and this is one of the reasons why

1541
01:04:52,430 --> 01:04:50,280
I've always been like wait a minute the

1542
01:04:55,190 --> 01:04:52,440
the Skeptics like let's just say like in

1543
01:04:57,789 --> 01:04:55,200
the academy who sort of go after people

1544
01:04:59,930 --> 01:04:57,799
who are researching thing you know

1545
01:05:02,150 --> 01:04:59,940
parapsychological stuff I'm like are you

1546
01:05:04,250 --> 01:05:02,160
going after the religious studies folks

1547
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:04,260
as hard as you're going after a

1548
01:05:08,260 --> 01:05:07,200
parapsychologist because if not yakana a

1549
01:05:10,849 --> 01:05:08,270
hypocrite there's a problem

1550
01:05:13,370 --> 01:05:10,859
[Laughter]

1551
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:13,380
I mean they are similar um

1552
01:05:18,609 --> 01:05:15,780
nope lost my train of thought now you

1553
01:05:22,609 --> 01:05:18,619
know though that's that's

1554
01:05:24,650 --> 01:05:22,619
before the show going going back to like

1555
01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:24,660
the several books I've read

1556
01:05:29,270 --> 01:05:27,180
um the the handful Hanson talks about

1557
01:05:30,530 --> 01:05:29,280
that in trickster in the Paranormal I

1558
01:05:35,210 --> 01:05:30,540
know I'm gonna always bring that up but

1559
01:05:36,109 --> 01:05:35,220
Hanson talks about in The Academy how

1560
01:05:38,750 --> 01:05:36,119
um

1561
01:05:40,370 --> 01:05:38,760
there's sort of like but you know this

1562
01:05:43,870 --> 01:05:40,380
is again like Hanson is actually

1563
01:05:47,630 --> 01:05:43,880
attributing this sort of like

1564
01:05:49,609 --> 01:05:47,640
there's a a psycho sociological aspect

1565
01:05:53,329 --> 01:05:49,619
to it and then there's like a woo aspect

1566
01:05:56,270 --> 01:05:53,339
where as we transition from like uh

1567
01:05:58,750 --> 01:05:56,280
Society governed by a charismatic leader

1568
01:06:02,589 --> 01:05:58,760
to one that's governed by bureaucracy

1569
01:06:06,049 --> 01:06:02,599
the bureaucracy exists in part

1570
01:06:08,089 --> 01:06:06,059
unknowingly to defend us from the

1571
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:08,099
Paranormal because I think

1572
01:06:11,270 --> 01:06:09,599
um I saw somebody I didn't even know

1573
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:11,280
what the what the comment was attached

1574
01:06:17,030 --> 01:06:14,640
to uh that was saying um

1575
01:06:19,910 --> 01:06:17,040
should caution be exercised here I don't

1576
01:06:23,450 --> 01:06:19,920
know what it was about but lakov is

1577
01:06:25,730 --> 01:06:23,460
literally the only person I have read

1578
01:06:27,829 --> 01:06:25,740
that says this stuff can be dangerous

1579
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:27,839
hmm

1580
01:06:33,950 --> 01:06:31,440
and it can be literally he starts off

1581
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:33,960
with an example of literal danger where

1582
01:06:38,210 --> 01:06:35,039
uh

1583
01:06:39,950 --> 01:06:38,220
I can't remember what what group of

1584
01:06:41,569 --> 01:06:39,960
natives he's talking about I want to say

1585
01:06:42,650 --> 01:06:41,579
it was the Sioux but somebody would have

1586
01:06:45,770 --> 01:06:42,660
to go through the book and look at and

1587
01:06:48,170 --> 01:06:45,780
they're studying um coyote stories and

1588
01:06:50,450 --> 01:06:48,180
it's a it's a anthropologist studying

1589
01:06:53,270 --> 01:06:50,460
this and at one point

1590
01:06:56,029 --> 01:06:53,280
the guys the the guys that he's looking

1591
01:06:58,250 --> 01:06:56,039
have to be like just pull them aside and

1592
01:06:59,390 --> 01:06:58,260
say you need to stop or somebody's gonna

1593
01:07:02,210 --> 01:06:59,400
die

1594
01:07:03,829 --> 01:07:02,220
and they said this is the access this is

1595
01:07:07,549 --> 01:07:03,839
what happens if you want to become a

1596
01:07:10,010 --> 01:07:07,559
magician you read these stories and once

1597
01:07:11,569 --> 01:07:10,020
you complete them somebody dies and then

1598
01:07:13,789 --> 01:07:11,579
you become a magician and that's the

1599
01:07:16,970 --> 01:07:13,799
sacrifice and they're dead serious and

1600
01:07:19,010 --> 01:07:16,980
this guy had synchronistic events where

1601
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,020
there are some close calls yet some

1602
01:07:24,910 --> 01:07:21,599
things where he themself

1603
01:07:28,010 --> 01:07:24,920
um experience some medical trauma

1604
01:07:30,410 --> 01:07:28,020
in the course of this

1605
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:30,420
um I would also say argue like Keel in

1606
01:07:35,329 --> 01:07:33,839
the eighth Tower is making the tacit

1607
01:07:37,490 --> 01:07:35,339
argument that this stuff is dangerous

1608
01:07:39,470 --> 01:07:37,500
because it can drive it's like you know

1609
01:07:42,109 --> 01:07:39,480
it drives people to Madness like people

1610
01:07:43,370 --> 01:07:42,119
yes and I I know that's something I even

1611
01:07:45,529 --> 01:07:43,380
remember

1612
01:07:46,970 --> 01:07:45,539
um Greg and Newkirk talking about this

1613
01:07:54,349 --> 01:07:46,980
once

1614
01:07:57,770 --> 01:07:54,359
like the experience like when you're

1615
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:57,780
like raw dogging the numinous

1616
01:08:05,690 --> 01:08:03,890
you either go well this is kind of the

1617
01:08:08,270 --> 01:08:05,700
this is what he was what we're saying

1618
01:08:12,349 --> 01:08:08,280
also in a society that's unmoored by any

1619
01:08:15,650 --> 01:08:12,359
kind of initiation into this right you

1620
01:08:18,110 --> 01:08:15,660
see that you see the UFO and you could

1621
01:08:20,930 --> 01:08:18,120
go nuts you could go nuts and ruin your

1622
01:08:23,570 --> 01:08:20,940
life spending like every every dollar

1623
01:08:25,370 --> 01:08:23,580
and every amount of energy chasing the

1624
01:08:28,130 --> 01:08:25,380
dragon and trying to figure out what the

1625
01:08:29,749 --> 01:08:28,140
hell happened to you because you it's

1626
01:08:33,410 --> 01:08:29,759
kind of the same thing like I would see

1627
01:08:35,650 --> 01:08:33,420
it's kind of like instead of being a you

1628
01:08:39,189 --> 01:08:35,660
know initiate in a shamanistic tradition

1629
01:08:43,370 --> 01:08:39,199
you pay some Bros to go take Ayahuasca

1630
01:08:46,370 --> 01:08:43,380
in a yurt somewhere and you're just like

1631
01:08:49,249 --> 01:08:46,380
and you're you you know you have like a

1632
01:08:51,650 --> 01:08:49,259
psychotic break because you like you

1633
01:08:53,229 --> 01:08:51,660
can't um go from like zero to Ego death

1634
01:08:56,570 --> 01:08:53,239
into seconds

1635
01:08:59,450 --> 01:08:56,580
this is Trading

1636
01:09:01,309 --> 01:08:59,460
this to me feels like one of the major

1637
01:09:03,349 --> 01:09:01,319
problems right now with particularly

1638
01:09:04,849 --> 01:09:03,359
ketamine therapy but psychedelic therapy

1639
01:09:06,289 --> 01:09:04,859
in general and I say this is a huge

1640
01:09:08,090 --> 01:09:06,299
proponent of psychedelics I think

1641
01:09:11,329 --> 01:09:08,100
psychedelics really powerful important

1642
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:11,339
tools but also holy smokes I cannot

1643
01:09:15,309 --> 01:09:13,199
imagine pumping someone full of ketamine

1644
01:09:17,689 --> 01:09:15,319
and giving them a fully like

1645
01:09:19,789 --> 01:09:17,699
Transcendent ego dissolving experience

1646
01:09:22,610 --> 01:09:19,799
and communion with like the cosmos

1647
01:09:24,650 --> 01:09:22,620
without also giving them an enormous

1648
01:09:27,110 --> 01:09:24,660
kind of spiritual and ontological

1649
01:09:28,910 --> 01:09:27,120
foundation and preparation far afield

1650
01:09:31,070 --> 01:09:28,920
from kind of the conventional

1651
01:09:34,490 --> 01:09:31,080
understanding of reality to do so it

1652
01:09:36,050 --> 01:09:34,500
seems like deeply irresponsible and also

1653
01:09:37,669 --> 01:09:36,060
like super traumatic like people talk

1654
01:09:40,430 --> 01:09:37,679
about these experiences as being deeply

1655
01:09:41,870 --> 01:09:40,440
deeply traumatic and I unsurprisingly of

1656
01:09:44,150 --> 01:09:41,880
course they can be if you're if you're

1657
01:09:46,669 --> 01:09:44,160
ill-prepared or equipped to integrate

1658
01:09:48,590 --> 01:09:46,679
and metabolize the experience this is

1659
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:48,600
one of those things um actually and this

1660
01:09:52,610 --> 01:09:50,880
is goes uh Greg Newkirk and his his

1661
01:09:53,630 --> 01:09:52,620
group did an experiment like this and I

1662
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:53,640
don't think

1663
01:09:57,169 --> 01:09:55,440
um they drew some criticism for this I

1664
01:09:58,189 --> 01:09:57,179
personally don't think anybody knew what

1665
01:09:59,630 --> 01:09:58,199
they were getting into but they

1666
01:10:01,490 --> 01:09:59,640
hypnotized somebody into having an

1667
01:10:07,450 --> 01:10:01,500
abduction experience

1668
01:10:12,169 --> 01:10:09,830
this was back in the who forwarded days

1669
01:10:14,030 --> 01:10:12,179
I think because they were selling like I

1670
01:10:16,430 --> 01:10:14,040
have some it's like it looks like a tape

1671
01:10:17,990 --> 01:10:16,440
but it's a USB drive with the the like

1672
01:10:19,850 --> 01:10:18,000
the regression it's not a regression

1673
01:10:22,010 --> 01:10:19,860
they were just like putting this guy it

1674
01:10:23,149 --> 01:10:22,020
was like a simulated and I think they

1675
01:10:24,530 --> 01:10:23,159
were trying to see because I know

1676
01:10:26,810 --> 01:10:24,540
there's like you said like there's a

1677
01:10:29,750 --> 01:10:26,820
psycho there's a psycho social

1678
01:10:31,790 --> 01:10:29,760
phenomenon there's that other book that

1679
01:10:33,350 --> 01:10:31,800
Leah that you and I read that's totally

1680
01:10:34,850 --> 01:10:33,360
escaping we were the guys like it's all

1681
01:10:37,550 --> 01:10:34,860
real but it's in your mind but it's

1682
01:10:39,729 --> 01:10:37,560
Quantum but it's not you know what I'm

1683
01:10:44,330 --> 01:10:39,739
talking about

1684
01:10:47,570 --> 01:10:44,340
I don't know man but I actually so I

1685
01:10:51,169 --> 01:10:47,580
will say one of the things

1686
01:10:53,390 --> 01:10:51,179
that I just realized now okay and I'm

1687
01:10:55,970 --> 01:10:53,400
I'm becoming a little more Pro Gadget

1688
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:55,980
okay because perceiving the phenomenon

1689
01:10:59,570 --> 01:10:57,840
via instrumentation gives you a little

1690
01:11:01,189 --> 01:10:59,580
buffer

1691
01:11:02,450 --> 01:11:01,199
oh I see like an intermediary or

1692
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:02,460
modulator

1693
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:05,040
Yeah because sometimes I mean it's just

1694
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:06,480
like I'm just gonna like because I've

1695
01:11:10,910 --> 01:11:08,100
been getting into building Electronics

1696
01:11:14,330 --> 01:11:10,920
it's like I'm just gonna slap a uh

1697
01:11:16,610 --> 01:11:14,340
filter capacitor or um some resistors on

1698
01:11:19,610 --> 01:11:16,620
here you know so I'm not like black

1699
01:11:22,490 --> 01:11:19,620
again like blasting full power just like

1700
01:11:24,410 --> 01:11:22,500
you it's totally different to go have

1701
01:11:27,709 --> 01:11:24,420
like do the Estus method on a haunted

1702
01:11:29,990 --> 01:11:27,719
location get some readings on your EMF

1703
01:11:32,689 --> 01:11:30,000
meter that it would be it's a quote the

1704
01:11:35,209 --> 01:11:32,699
Ghostbusters that had a uh full body

1705
01:11:37,490 --> 01:11:35,219
Apparition like the thing in the library

1706
01:11:39,290 --> 01:11:37,500
at the beginning of that that would be

1707
01:11:42,530 --> 01:11:39,300
like that would change your entire life

1708
01:11:45,229 --> 01:11:42,540
in one moment yeah if that if you

1709
01:11:47,810 --> 01:11:45,239
experience something like that so I

1710
01:11:50,030 --> 01:11:47,820
don't again like I'm not I don't think

1711
01:11:52,550 --> 01:11:50,040
anybody and this is sort of again maybe

1712
01:11:55,189 --> 01:11:52,560
the danger like

1713
01:11:57,110 --> 01:11:55,199
um when I build like I'm looking at

1714
01:11:59,390 --> 01:11:57,120
building like another side device maybe

1715
01:12:02,030 --> 01:11:59,400
like I'm going to like in classic

1716
01:12:03,890 --> 01:12:02,040
Spider-Man villain tradition I like to

1717
01:12:06,890 --> 01:12:03,900
put that stuff on myself and hit the

1718
01:12:09,410 --> 01:12:06,900
power but I'm not asking anybody else to

1719
01:12:12,350 --> 01:12:09,420
like I'm not like here here you want to

1720
01:12:15,590 --> 01:12:12,360
be you you be first like I'm like yeah

1721
01:12:17,750 --> 01:12:15,600
if I become like um Dr Bento or

1722
01:12:20,090 --> 01:12:17,760
something after like hooking the thing

1723
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:20,100
off wrong and you see me getting punched

1724
01:12:28,189 --> 01:12:23,820
out by uh Spider-Man that's like that's

1725
01:12:29,870 --> 01:12:28,199
on me yeah like yeah you know I am I'm

1726
01:12:31,490 --> 01:12:29,880
gonna I'm gonna kind of lane change

1727
01:12:34,130 --> 01:12:31,500
because Courtney one of the things I

1728
01:12:37,550 --> 01:12:34,140
want to nerd out with you about is

1729
01:12:40,010 --> 01:12:37,560
um like basically validated

1730
01:12:42,350 --> 01:12:40,020
um paranormal or parapsychological

1731
01:12:44,030 --> 01:12:42,360
research I'm especially thinking of the

1732
01:12:45,830 --> 01:12:44,040
global Consciousness project which came

1733
01:12:47,570 --> 01:12:45,840
out of pear

1734
01:12:49,430 --> 01:12:47,580
um because I spent a lot of time reading

1735
01:12:52,610 --> 01:12:49,440
some of those papers

1736
01:12:53,390 --> 01:12:52,620
um and I'm deeply deeply fascinated by

1737
01:12:54,890 --> 01:12:53,400
this

1738
01:12:56,270 --> 01:12:54,900
um is that the one with the ramdrum

1739
01:12:59,750 --> 01:12:56,280
number generator random number

1740
01:13:02,750 --> 01:12:59,760
generators yeah and like sort of their

1741
01:13:03,890 --> 01:13:02,760
um relationship to World defense

1742
01:13:05,810 --> 01:13:03,900
yeah

1743
01:13:08,390 --> 01:13:05,820
now how did that work I think it was

1744
01:13:10,189 --> 01:13:08,400
like a large tale or large-scale study

1745
01:13:11,209 --> 01:13:10,199
with a number of participants where they

1746
01:13:13,550 --> 01:13:11,219
had one of these random number

1747
01:13:15,709 --> 01:13:13,560
generators and they would uh consciously

1748
01:13:17,450 --> 01:13:15,719
try to affect it right yep and then they

1749
01:13:18,709 --> 01:13:17,460
kind of looked at that data over a long

1750
01:13:22,310 --> 01:13:18,719
period of time and noticed that there's

1751
01:13:25,189 --> 01:13:22,320
a correlation of something during uh

1752
01:13:27,169 --> 01:13:25,199
world events or local events and stuff

1753
01:13:28,790 --> 01:13:27,179
yeah um

1754
01:13:31,970 --> 01:13:28,800
yeah yeah

1755
01:13:33,169 --> 01:13:31,980
where where do people find this kind of

1756
01:13:34,130 --> 01:13:33,179
stuff

1757
01:13:37,070 --> 01:13:34,140
um

1758
01:13:38,750 --> 01:13:37,080
well I I'm glad Leah that you brought

1759
01:13:41,390 --> 01:13:38,760
this up and I'm not sure Nick if this

1760
01:13:43,970 --> 01:13:41,400
answers your question but

1761
01:13:47,330 --> 01:13:43,980
um yeah so so the folks at Duke

1762
01:13:49,729 --> 01:13:47,340
parapsychology Labs were also doing

1763
01:13:53,209 --> 01:13:49,739
research with random number generators

1764
01:13:56,750 --> 01:13:53,219
and oh uh yes I didn't know that cool

1765
01:13:59,450 --> 01:13:56,760
yeah and uh and PSY and and in

1766
01:14:04,189 --> 01:13:59,460
particular through the sort of lens of

1767
01:14:06,950 --> 01:14:04,199
um psychokinesis like can we manipulate

1768
01:14:09,290 --> 01:14:06,960
um you know physical physical things and

1769
01:14:11,510 --> 01:14:09,300
so they did lots of um

1770
01:14:13,669 --> 01:14:11,520
lots of studies with random number

1771
01:14:18,010 --> 01:14:13,679
generators I'm trying to bring to mind

1772
01:14:20,870 --> 01:14:18,020
like the name of one of the researchers

1773
01:14:23,330 --> 01:14:20,880
and of course it's blinking from me now

1774
01:14:26,689 --> 01:14:23,340
but yeah they uh they did those studies

1775
01:14:29,270 --> 01:14:26,699
uh at Duke all sorts of different uh

1776
01:14:32,030 --> 01:14:29,280
with different sort of machinery and and

1777
01:14:33,410 --> 01:14:32,040
uh and then like you said continue to

1778
01:14:35,689 --> 01:14:33,420
pair

1779
01:14:36,830 --> 01:14:35,699
um in a much like sort of like bigger

1780
01:14:37,490 --> 01:14:36,840
way

1781
01:14:40,370 --> 01:14:37,500
um

1782
01:14:42,770 --> 01:14:40,380
and uh

1783
01:14:44,270 --> 01:14:42,780
and then we see we we see like the

1784
01:14:45,950 --> 01:14:44,280
efforts now with like the global

1785
01:14:49,010 --> 01:14:45,960
Consciousness project that is really

1786
01:14:50,570 --> 01:14:49,020
like taking taking that like research

1787
01:14:52,610 --> 01:14:50,580
and that idea and applying it and just

1788
01:14:54,290 --> 01:14:52,620
like really cool ways was that Roger

1789
01:14:56,410 --> 01:14:54,300
Nelson

1790
01:14:58,669 --> 01:14:56,420
there were a few people I can't remember

1791
01:15:00,950 --> 01:14:58,679
I think Raiden had something to do with

1792
01:15:02,810 --> 01:15:00,960
those two but this is this is actually

1793
01:15:04,250 --> 01:15:02,820
focusing on like a kind of a very

1794
01:15:06,169 --> 01:15:04,260
specific

1795
01:15:07,189 --> 01:15:06,179
um Avenue in parapsychology because it's

1796
01:15:09,470 --> 01:15:07,199
not only

1797
01:15:10,490 --> 01:15:09,480
um psychokinesis affecting these things

1798
01:15:12,770 --> 01:15:10,500
but there's

1799
01:15:15,110 --> 01:15:12,780
smaller subdivisions of this of macro

1800
01:15:17,450 --> 01:15:15,120
and micro cycle of Innocence right so

1801
01:15:19,250 --> 01:15:17,460
like when we think of Kinesis we think

1802
01:15:21,830 --> 01:15:19,260
of you know or yell or bending a spoon

1803
01:15:24,169 --> 01:15:21,840
or like people that that Soviet woman

1804
01:15:27,709 --> 01:15:24,179
moving the thing under the glass but um

1805
01:15:29,149 --> 01:15:27,719
this is kind of a concept of uh

1806
01:15:30,649 --> 01:15:29,159
and I don't know if it's because of

1807
01:15:32,450 --> 01:15:30,659
sensory gating because I know they they

1808
01:15:35,810 --> 01:15:32,460
go into kind of sensory deprivation to

1809
01:15:38,990 --> 01:15:35,820
test these things but um just like on

1810
01:15:41,090 --> 01:15:39,000
the micro scale just just these these

1811
01:15:42,410 --> 01:15:41,100
tiny like you wouldn't see them if you

1812
01:15:44,570 --> 01:15:42,420
if you're not looking for them I think

1813
01:15:47,689 --> 01:15:44,580
that was kind of the uh the concept of

1814
01:15:49,850 --> 01:15:47,699
this this big experiment yeah there were

1815
01:15:50,990 --> 01:15:49,860
some studies that they did

1816
01:15:53,810 --> 01:15:51,000
um

1817
01:15:55,910 --> 01:15:53,820
with like micro psychokinesis which I'm

1818
01:15:57,229 --> 01:15:55,920
so glad you brought up like micro and

1819
01:15:59,410 --> 01:15:57,239
macro and

1820
01:16:02,510 --> 01:15:59,420
um like things like uh like like micro

1821
01:16:03,189 --> 01:16:02,520
psychokinesis might be

1822
01:16:06,050 --> 01:16:03,199
um

1823
01:16:08,330 --> 01:16:06,060
manipulating the temperature to like

1824
01:16:10,669 --> 01:16:08,340
maybe go up like a degree or half degree

1825
01:16:14,030 --> 01:16:10,679
or these like you said the things that

1826
01:16:16,130 --> 01:16:14,040
we don't uh we don't necessarily see and

1827
01:16:21,410 --> 01:16:16,140
then macro PK would would be like you

1828
01:16:24,950 --> 01:16:22,729
laughs

1829
01:16:26,630 --> 01:16:24,960
I am Courtney I have a bit of a personal

1830
01:16:29,209 --> 01:16:26,640
question around this subject it's one of

1831
01:16:31,610 --> 01:16:29,219
my favorites to ask people in and around

1832
01:16:34,310 --> 01:16:31,620
um hi strangeness which is over the

1833
01:16:36,890 --> 01:16:34,320
lifetime of your research and your work

1834
01:16:38,810 --> 01:16:36,900
have your views changed like are the

1835
01:16:41,149 --> 01:16:38,820
reviews or beliefs that you had before

1836
01:16:43,430 --> 01:16:41,159
that you no longer believe or things you

1837
01:16:45,890 --> 01:16:43,440
no longer you used to things you didn't

1838
01:16:49,729 --> 01:16:45,900
believe and now do like sort of how has

1839
01:16:54,649 --> 01:16:52,490
that is such a great question

1840
01:16:57,290 --> 01:16:54,659
um oh my gosh okay thank you for asking

1841
01:16:58,669 --> 01:16:57,300
this I it kind of reminds me in a way

1842
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:58,679
like

1843
01:17:02,689 --> 01:17:00,000
um something Nick that you were talking

1844
01:17:04,790 --> 01:17:02,699
about a little while ago about this like

1845
01:17:07,550 --> 01:17:04,800
the the sort of similarities with like

1846
01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:07,560
spirituality and so forth so so to me

1847
01:17:14,090 --> 01:17:10,800
like personally the

1848
01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:14,100
the phenomena is a bit is a spiritual

1849
01:17:20,810 --> 01:17:17,280
outlook for me like it I find like a lot

1850
01:17:23,209 --> 01:17:20,820
of personal meaning I find a lot of like

1851
01:17:25,970 --> 01:17:23,219
connection through it

1852
01:17:27,350 --> 01:17:25,980
um and it's it's really interesting

1853
01:17:30,050 --> 01:17:27,360
because I

1854
01:17:32,630 --> 01:17:30,060
I've been having these conversations

1855
01:17:34,430 --> 01:17:32,640
lately with like um some friends and a

1856
01:17:37,729 --> 01:17:34,440
cousin of mine about like as somebody

1857
01:17:40,189 --> 01:17:37,739
with generalized anxiety disorder

1858
01:17:43,850 --> 01:17:40,199
um and the dissociation that sometimes

1859
01:17:46,010 --> 01:17:43,860
comes from that like I feel I've been

1860
01:17:48,890 --> 01:17:46,020
musing a lot about how

1861
01:17:51,310 --> 01:17:48,900
the the ghostly and the Paranormal seems

1862
01:17:54,229 --> 01:17:51,320
very familiar to me because

1863
01:17:55,550 --> 01:17:54,239
dissociation is like a ghostly act in my

1864
01:17:57,050 --> 01:17:55,560
mind

1865
01:17:59,330 --> 01:17:57,060
um and it's it's like one of those

1866
01:18:00,830 --> 01:17:59,340
moments when like you're not really here

1867
01:18:02,689 --> 01:18:00,840
and you're not really there and like

1868
01:18:04,729 --> 01:18:02,699
what is a ghost but not really here and

1869
01:18:05,330 --> 01:18:04,739
not really there

1870
01:18:09,010 --> 01:18:05,340
um

1871
01:18:11,689 --> 01:18:09,020
and on a more sort of less like woo

1872
01:18:13,729 --> 01:18:11,699
broad sort of example

1873
01:18:16,310 --> 01:18:13,739
um one of the one of the things that has

1874
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:16,320
been changing for me recently is this

1875
01:18:18,910 --> 01:18:17,520
idea

1876
01:18:21,229 --> 01:18:18,920
that

1877
01:18:22,810 --> 01:18:21,239
ghosts are

1878
01:18:25,669 --> 01:18:22,820
it's just like

1879
01:18:28,430 --> 01:18:25,679
waiting for us to to come and talk to

1880
01:18:30,590 --> 01:18:28,440
them and and I've been trying to like

1881
01:18:33,410 --> 01:18:30,600
really ask myself like what is my sort

1882
01:18:36,290 --> 01:18:33,420
of like personal definition of what a

1883
01:18:38,510 --> 01:18:36,300
ghost is because I can get very

1884
01:18:40,370 --> 01:18:38,520
philosophy I mean I think like I think

1885
01:18:43,250 --> 01:18:40,380
library books are ghosts right like

1886
01:18:44,810 --> 01:18:43,260
written by people you know during a

1887
01:18:46,610 --> 01:18:44,820
particular point in their time these

1888
01:18:49,550 --> 01:18:46,620
authors may or may not be alive and then

1889
01:18:50,750 --> 01:18:49,560
they you know but anyways okay but I

1890
01:18:51,410 --> 01:18:50,760
think

1891
01:18:53,930 --> 01:18:51,420
um

1892
01:18:56,750 --> 01:18:53,940
what I tend to believe and I'm still

1893
01:18:58,250 --> 01:18:56,760
kind of working through it is that that

1894
01:19:02,030 --> 01:18:58,260
we

1895
01:19:05,570 --> 01:19:02,040
summon the ghosts like through like

1896
01:19:08,030 --> 01:19:05,580
memory or through through presence and

1897
01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:08,040
less that they're like literally

1898
01:19:13,189 --> 01:19:11,040
like stuck there waiting for us

1899
01:19:16,070 --> 01:19:13,199
um or that they're stuck anywhere and I

1900
01:19:18,830 --> 01:19:16,080
there's other people like out there like

1901
01:19:21,370 --> 01:19:18,840
in this community who talk about ghosts

1902
01:19:24,590 --> 01:19:21,380
being you know like um

1903
01:19:27,729 --> 01:19:24,600
fragments fragmented like moments in

1904
01:19:30,530 --> 01:19:27,739
time uh sort of

1905
01:19:33,890 --> 01:19:30,540
fragmented Echoes if you will like the

1906
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:33,900
stone team Theory yeah yeah yeah and

1907
01:19:38,750 --> 01:19:36,960
others uh who are who are um in the

1908
01:19:42,110 --> 01:19:38,760
community now

1909
01:19:45,229 --> 01:19:42,120
um like uh if you guys have uh followed

1910
01:19:47,510 --> 01:19:45,239
Amanda Paulson uh pretty effing spooky

1911
01:19:49,490 --> 01:19:47,520
with her her uh theories of the

1912
01:19:53,330 --> 01:19:49,500
Paranormal emotive touch points which

1913
01:19:54,709 --> 01:19:53,340
are like you know right yeah wait talk a

1914
01:19:57,370 --> 01:19:54,719
little bit about this where you at both

1915
01:20:00,649 --> 01:19:57,380
people generally so here's your chance

1916
01:20:03,470 --> 01:20:00,659
Educators yay well okay well Amanda can

1917
01:20:05,510 --> 01:20:03,480
be the one go check out her stuff um but

1918
01:20:07,130 --> 01:20:05,520
yeah she's got this

1919
01:20:09,709 --> 01:20:07,140
um I'm not gonna say it nearly as good

1920
01:20:13,310 --> 01:20:09,719
as she says it but this idea that like

1921
01:20:16,669 --> 01:20:13,320
there are these paranormal emotive these

1922
01:20:19,970 --> 01:20:16,679
like huge emotional like moments that

1923
01:20:22,370 --> 01:20:19,980
kind of like tap into

1924
01:20:24,590 --> 01:20:22,380
um or facilitate that like Paranormal

1925
01:20:28,490 --> 01:20:24,600
Connection in a way

1926
01:20:31,010 --> 01:20:28,500
um and so and create Echoes that Ripple

1927
01:20:34,010 --> 01:20:31,020
out to like later connect with us in

1928
01:20:36,110 --> 01:20:34,020
ways but yeah she calls it the

1929
01:20:38,030 --> 01:20:36,120
um parent paranormal paranormal emotive

1930
01:20:40,370 --> 01:20:38,040
touch points yes so if you've been

1931
01:20:42,290 --> 01:20:40,380
reading about this because it's uh in

1932
01:20:44,270 --> 01:20:42,300
the most I would call it a technology in

1933
01:20:45,350 --> 01:20:44,280
the most broad sense of the term but she

1934
01:20:47,870 --> 01:20:45,360
was she's talking about how you could

1935
01:20:50,630 --> 01:20:47,880
you don't have to travel to paranormal

1936
01:20:54,350 --> 01:20:50,640
investigation yes yes that sounds like

1937
01:20:57,110 --> 01:20:54,360
cool yeah no I love her stuff and her

1938
01:20:58,729 --> 01:20:57,120
theories and you know there there are

1939
01:21:01,010 --> 01:20:58,739
other people too I don't ever want to

1940
01:21:02,870 --> 01:21:01,020
seem like I'm like dismissing other

1941
01:21:05,330 --> 01:21:02,880
people who other people are also talking

1942
01:21:07,970 --> 01:21:05,340
about very similar things it's really

1943
01:21:10,130 --> 01:21:07,980
cool and I think it's one of the things

1944
01:21:11,630 --> 01:21:10,140
too that I I like to one of the reasons

1945
01:21:14,630 --> 01:21:11,640
that I like to tell people where you can

1946
01:21:17,689 --> 01:21:14,640
get where you can access readings and

1947
01:21:19,970 --> 01:21:17,699
research about it is that you can like

1948
01:21:21,890 --> 01:21:19,980
like the psychokinesis experiments using

1949
01:21:25,189 --> 01:21:21,900
dice that were really have you learn

1950
01:21:28,850 --> 01:21:25,199
like the 40s 50s and 60s are deceptively

1951
01:21:31,070 --> 01:21:28,860
simple experiments that you know you can

1952
01:21:33,110 --> 01:21:31,080
access those articles you can read them

1953
01:21:36,770 --> 01:21:33,120
you can get inspiration get weird one

1954
01:21:39,649 --> 01:21:36,780
weekend because like it is a privilege

1955
01:21:43,189 --> 01:21:39,659
to be able to have the disposable income

1956
01:21:44,330 --> 01:21:43,199
to go to these places and now don't get

1957
01:21:46,669 --> 01:21:44,340
me wrong like

1958
01:21:49,070 --> 01:21:46,679
I I think if you want to go to these

1959
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:49,080
places do it that's cool and I like that

1960
01:21:53,689 --> 01:21:51,120
the money often goes to like keeping

1961
01:21:56,050 --> 01:21:53,699
these places intact yeah

1962
01:21:59,750 --> 01:21:56,060
um but also too I think people

1963
01:22:01,970 --> 01:21:59,760
like they think that they have to go

1964
01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:01,980
to certain places right like Jay what

1965
01:22:06,169 --> 01:22:03,360
you were getting ready to say is and

1966
01:22:08,270 --> 01:22:06,179
yeah and I just I yeah I think

1967
01:22:10,970 --> 01:22:08,280
I just like reminding people like you

1968
01:22:11,930 --> 01:22:10,980
can you can just get like we are we are

1969
01:22:16,669 --> 01:22:11,940
like

1970
01:22:20,530 --> 01:22:16,679
you can get as weird as you want right

1971
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:20,540
in your own house you know and and hey

1972
01:22:25,370 --> 01:22:23,520
yeah buy some singer cards

1973
01:22:27,229 --> 01:22:25,380
I also remember

1974
01:22:28,970 --> 01:22:27,239
um Conor you know

1975
01:22:30,470 --> 01:22:28,980
um from the Hellyer crew the original

1976
01:22:32,630 --> 01:22:30,480
one of The Originators of the Estus

1977
01:22:35,810 --> 01:22:32,640
method does it in his apartment

1978
01:22:38,990 --> 01:22:35,820
yeah he's just talking like he's he's

1979
01:22:40,070 --> 01:22:39,000
trying to do that and

1980
01:22:42,890 --> 01:22:40,080
um

1981
01:22:45,290 --> 01:22:42,900
like I've done it on Zoom with people in

1982
01:22:48,290 --> 01:22:45,300
different parts of the country

1983
01:22:50,270 --> 01:22:48,300
Jay yeah people are gonna be mad at me

1984
01:22:54,110 --> 01:22:50,280
because I haven't watched Hellyer yeah I

1985
01:22:56,689 --> 01:22:54,120
know sorry uh what's the Estus method

1986
01:22:59,689 --> 01:22:56,699
the Estus method is actually okay came

1987
01:23:01,669 --> 01:22:59,699
from um Conor J Randall and some other

1988
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:01,679
folks who were the in-house paranormal

1989
01:23:09,229 --> 01:23:05,760
investigators at the um Estes hotel in

1990
01:23:10,550 --> 01:23:09,239
or no the Hotel in Estes Park I can't

1991
01:23:12,490 --> 01:23:10,560
remember the name of the hotel right now

1992
01:23:18,530 --> 01:23:12,500
but oh the overall hotel

1993
01:23:24,830 --> 01:23:22,149
um one person you haven't you have yeah

1994
01:23:26,390 --> 01:23:24,840
right you have an interlock shooter so

1995
01:23:28,189 --> 01:23:26,400
you just have somebody would be asking

1996
01:23:30,770 --> 01:23:28,199
the questions and then you have a

1997
01:23:33,229 --> 01:23:30,780
receiver so the receiver is a person um

1998
01:23:34,130 --> 01:23:33,239
that has a ghost box and then they are

1999
01:23:36,290 --> 01:23:34,140
doing

2000
01:23:38,570 --> 01:23:36,300
um Visual and

2001
01:23:41,990 --> 01:23:38,580
um audio sensory deprivation so okay

2002
01:23:43,850 --> 01:23:42,000
they have done really power like really

2003
01:23:46,189 --> 01:23:43,860
heavy noise canceling headphones in a

2004
01:23:48,350 --> 01:23:46,199
like a really heavily opaque blindfold

2005
01:23:50,450 --> 01:23:48,360
so it would be like you are going to

2006
01:23:52,130 --> 01:23:50,460
verbally ask and there's an observer so

2007
01:23:56,689 --> 01:23:52,140
Leah would be the Observer Court you

2008
01:24:01,310 --> 01:23:59,169
I um

2009
01:24:03,470 --> 01:24:01,320
no no no no no

2010
01:24:07,550 --> 01:24:05,810
you would you would ask the question and

2011
01:24:09,590 --> 01:24:07,560
then I would be scanning and I'm going

2012
01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:09,600
to verbally State What I Hear through

2013
01:24:16,010 --> 01:24:13,020
the ghost box okay so we're having a

2014
01:24:20,270 --> 01:24:16,020
multiple person con conversation with

2015
01:24:23,090 --> 01:24:20,280
entities or entity in question it's kind

2016
01:24:25,430 --> 01:24:23,100
of like ce5 this is basically abcd-5

2017
01:24:28,189 --> 01:24:25,440
yeah for ghost people

2018
01:24:31,910 --> 01:24:28,199
um you have a a shack hack or like an

2019
01:24:34,790 --> 01:24:31,920
Xbox Jay yeah I do I actually have

2020
01:24:36,169 --> 01:24:34,800
um I have the gadgets if anybody I know

2021
01:24:37,669 --> 01:24:36,179
somebody said Nick should go out the

2022
01:24:40,550 --> 01:24:37,679
gadgets if you want somebody to go with

2023
01:24:47,770 --> 01:24:40,560
the gadgets like I love the gadgets just

2024
01:24:52,550 --> 01:24:50,570
so I have a pretty nice one I actually

2025
01:24:56,630 --> 01:24:52,560
have one too that will record

2026
01:24:59,330 --> 01:24:56,640
on an SD card so you can hear you can

2027
01:25:01,490 --> 01:24:59,340
um you know relative to what I'm saying

2028
01:25:03,290 --> 01:25:01,500
in terms of playback

2029
01:25:06,350 --> 01:25:03,300
um you could you could listen to what it

2030
01:25:09,169 --> 01:25:06,360
was recorded through the sweeps

2031
01:25:11,209 --> 01:25:09,179
although I own a warn everybody

2032
01:25:14,090 --> 01:25:11,219
this is and I've warned people I've done

2033
01:25:17,630 --> 01:25:14,100
this with I don't have good FM AM

2034
01:25:20,930 --> 01:25:17,640
stations in my area so I use FM to sweep

2035
01:25:25,310 --> 01:25:20,940
and if it comes to music I will sing

2036
01:25:27,590 --> 01:25:25,320
which is terrifying but I will I will if

2037
01:25:29,649 --> 01:25:27,600
I get released like a really strong

2038
01:25:32,810 --> 01:25:29,659
thing of it with some music I'm singing

2039
01:25:34,729 --> 01:25:32,820
yeah it's just you gotta you gotta deal

2040
01:25:38,149 --> 01:25:34,739
with it but uh

2041
01:25:40,189 --> 01:25:38,159
oh sorry no but um

2042
01:25:41,510 --> 01:25:40,199
yeah Amanda's stuff is really

2043
01:25:43,970 --> 01:25:41,520
interesting

2044
01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:43,980
um and again like I think like like

2045
01:25:47,630 --> 01:25:45,600
again you don't have to go to the stuff

2046
01:25:49,850 --> 01:25:47,640
I want to go to a strange escapes but

2047
01:25:51,709 --> 01:25:49,860
just because I saw everybody's 30s 1920s

2048
01:25:54,830 --> 01:25:51,719
party outfits

2049
01:25:57,709 --> 01:25:54,840
like and some of the stuff is just

2050
01:25:59,750 --> 01:25:57,719
um it's it is a little expensive like I

2051
01:26:02,750 --> 01:25:59,760
went to well you and I saw each other

2052
01:26:04,250 --> 01:26:02,760
Courtney in Detroit yeah and I'm kind of

2053
01:26:06,950 --> 01:26:04,260
like oh that's like I'm doing Detroit

2054
01:26:08,930 --> 01:26:06,960
and that's pretty much it for this year

2055
01:26:10,430 --> 01:26:08,940
but yeah yeah what are you guys doing in

2056
01:26:13,729 --> 01:26:10,440
Detroit

2057
01:26:16,669 --> 01:26:13,739
we went to I know I like very very very

2058
01:26:19,729 --> 01:26:16,679
briefly saw you and it was like

2059
01:26:22,910 --> 01:26:19,739
um it was the was it the day paranormal

2060
01:26:24,350 --> 01:26:22,920
no diet paranormal die paranormal event

2061
01:26:26,629 --> 01:26:24,360
at

2062
01:26:28,490 --> 01:26:26,639
um oh it's like a beautiful old mansion

2063
01:26:29,890 --> 01:26:28,500
uh what was the name of that the Whitney

2064
01:26:34,729 --> 01:26:29,900
the Whitney

2065
01:26:36,830 --> 01:26:34,739
yeah he's like a beautiful mansion that

2066
01:26:38,450 --> 01:26:36,840
is has like a haunted history and they

2067
01:26:41,870 --> 01:26:38,460
just sort of did like an evening a

2068
01:26:43,370 --> 01:26:41,880
dinner and like a panel and and I Jay

2069
01:26:47,090 --> 01:26:43,380
like I like what you're saying about

2070
01:26:49,910 --> 01:26:47,100
like talking about how you really Vibe

2071
01:26:52,189 --> 01:26:49,920
with like gadgetry and I think that's

2072
01:26:55,689 --> 01:26:52,199
cool like what I really hope that

2073
01:26:59,270 --> 01:26:55,699
everyone it feels empowered to do is

2074
01:27:02,290 --> 01:26:59,280
seek out and experience the phenomena in

2075
01:27:05,750 --> 01:27:02,300
whatever way feels natural to them

2076
01:27:07,310 --> 01:27:05,760
instead of feeling pressured to like

2077
01:27:09,530 --> 01:27:07,320
think that they have to do it a certain

2078
01:27:12,350 --> 01:27:09,540
way you know what I mean

2079
01:27:14,149 --> 01:27:12,360
um and so I think hey like if a gadgets

2080
01:27:15,950 --> 01:27:14,159
are your thing then I think that's

2081
01:27:17,510 --> 01:27:15,960
awesome and what's really cool is that

2082
01:27:20,290 --> 01:27:17,520
we can all gather and talk about it and

2083
01:27:23,270 --> 01:27:20,300
be like this is how I experience

2084
01:27:25,030 --> 01:27:23,280
that's the best part of those Gatherings

2085
01:27:28,010 --> 01:27:25,040
is yeah

2086
01:27:30,410 --> 01:27:28,020
people that are psychic and people that

2087
01:27:33,229 --> 01:27:30,420
are like practicing magicians of

2088
01:27:35,030 --> 01:27:33,239
different styles and people that are

2089
01:27:37,850 --> 01:27:35,040
like me either like I got to I got the

2090
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:37,860
toys I got the gadgets ready

2091
01:27:41,450 --> 01:27:40,320
um yeah it's just it's really it's

2092
01:27:44,270 --> 01:27:41,460
really fun

2093
01:27:46,850 --> 01:27:44,280
um and that and that yeah aspect of it

2094
01:27:47,689 --> 01:27:46,860
yeah and also that it that it's okay to

2095
01:27:50,570 --> 01:27:47,699
just

2096
01:27:53,330 --> 01:27:50,580
fun you know like

2097
01:27:55,430 --> 01:27:53,340
um you know like if you get inspired to

2098
01:27:57,590 --> 01:27:55,440
like you know buy something you read

2099
01:27:59,870 --> 01:27:57,600
about a parapsychology experiment using

2100
01:28:02,810 --> 01:27:59,880
dice like just have fun with it you know

2101
01:28:05,810 --> 01:28:02,820
like your your goal isn't to like solve

2102
01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:05,820
it all or get your night published in a

2103
01:28:11,390 --> 01:28:07,800
scholarly article and like that's okay

2104
01:28:15,050 --> 01:28:11,400
like just just engage and have fun and

2105
01:28:17,209 --> 01:28:15,060
be weird and I don't know yes yeah it's

2106
01:28:20,090 --> 01:28:17,219
not a competitive sport right and I also

2107
01:28:21,890 --> 01:28:20,100
think like I think paranormal I mean

2108
01:28:22,729 --> 01:28:21,900
spirituality is also lends itself to

2109
01:28:24,229 --> 01:28:22,739
this

2110
01:28:26,930 --> 01:28:24,239
um I think we

2111
01:28:28,729 --> 01:28:26,940
we collectively can fall into this sort

2112
01:28:30,950 --> 01:28:28,739
of capitalist trapping of thinking that

2113
01:28:33,470 --> 01:28:30,960
in order to be Indus

2114
01:28:35,149 --> 01:28:33,480
a [\h__\h] associated with it

2115
01:28:36,590 --> 01:28:35,159
right like to be a writer you actually

2116
01:28:38,750 --> 01:28:36,600
don't have to buy a laptop or a

2117
01:28:39,890 --> 01:28:38,760
typewriter you can just right

2118
01:28:42,470 --> 01:28:39,900
exactly

2119
01:28:44,270 --> 01:28:42,480
um and I I think that there is this sort

2120
01:28:46,490 --> 01:28:44,280
of commodification of a lot of these

2121
01:28:47,810 --> 01:28:46,500
practices into now look Jay you're

2122
01:28:49,310 --> 01:28:47,820
excluded from this because I know you're

2123
01:28:51,410 --> 01:28:49,320
in your basement with like a soldering

2124
01:28:53,689 --> 01:28:51,420
iron building this [\h__\h] and testing that

2125
01:28:55,729 --> 01:28:53,699
in yourself but like like I I feel like

2126
01:28:57,770 --> 01:28:55,739
I see a lot of it in like my universe of

2127
01:28:59,390 --> 01:28:57,780
Wu with like crystals and Tarot decks

2128
01:29:01,850 --> 01:28:59,400
right you don't need 100 tarot decks

2129
01:29:03,770 --> 01:29:01,860
this is not a competitive sport

2130
01:29:05,810 --> 01:29:03,780
um and I'm totally with you in terms of

2131
01:29:08,510 --> 01:29:05,820
this not being

2132
01:29:10,129 --> 01:29:08,520
um I think the other part of this maybe

2133
01:29:13,070 --> 01:29:10,139
the side cards either you don't have to

2134
01:29:14,390 --> 01:29:13,080
buy all the [\h__\h] is also uh Courtney I

2135
01:29:15,890 --> 01:29:14,400
totally agree with you like you don't

2136
01:29:18,169 --> 01:29:15,900
have to follow some prescriptive

2137
01:29:20,510 --> 01:29:18,179
practice this is not about being the

2138
01:29:23,090 --> 01:29:20,520
most smart and the most correct right

2139
01:29:25,970 --> 01:29:23,100
and having having space for these more

2140
01:29:28,070 --> 01:29:25,980
integrated processes that draw upon

2141
01:29:29,990 --> 01:29:28,080
multiple different traditions and

2142
01:29:32,810 --> 01:29:30,000
lineages

2143
01:29:35,090 --> 01:29:32,820
um and Nick is getting ready for his

2144
01:29:37,790 --> 01:29:35,100
only fans debut after the show

2145
01:29:39,950 --> 01:29:37,800
um like I I like and I think this is

2146
01:29:41,810 --> 01:29:39,960
really kind of how it's done when it's

2147
01:29:43,610 --> 01:29:41,820
done authentically is you kind of pick

2148
01:29:46,490 --> 01:29:43,620
and choose different practices and ideas

2149
01:29:48,830 --> 01:29:46,500
I am and aside here was

2150
01:29:50,629 --> 01:29:48,840
um I was getting very deep and serious

2151
01:29:52,910 --> 01:29:50,639
about Buddhist practice over the last

2152
01:29:54,770 --> 01:29:52,920
like 18 months or so going in lots of

2153
01:29:57,290 --> 01:29:54,780
Retreats working with teachers thinking

2154
01:29:59,330 --> 01:29:57,300
very seriously about taking the precepts

2155
01:30:01,250 --> 01:29:59,340
and committing myself to a lay monastic

2156
01:30:02,570 --> 01:30:01,260
life and all this stuff and then I

2157
01:30:05,149 --> 01:30:02,580
talked to someone in the Buddhist

2158
01:30:07,610 --> 01:30:05,159
Community who is like the guy in Western

2159
01:30:09,530 --> 01:30:07,620
Buddhism and he was like yeah I don't

2160
01:30:11,209 --> 01:30:09,540
know I just like do all the practices I

2161
01:30:12,950 --> 01:30:11,219
like like I'm not a millennial age and

2162
01:30:14,330 --> 01:30:12,960
it felt good for me to hear that because

2163
01:30:15,830 --> 01:30:14,340
it felt like it gave myself permission

2164
01:30:17,090 --> 01:30:15,840
to then be like oh I can just kind of

2165
01:30:19,189 --> 01:30:17,100
pick and choose and do my own thing and

2166
01:30:20,930 --> 01:30:19,199
it doesn't make me less of a

2167
01:30:23,570 --> 01:30:20,940
practitioner

2168
01:30:25,250 --> 01:30:23,580
yes oh my gosh one of my friends always

2169
01:30:27,110 --> 01:30:25,260
loves to do like finger snaps when

2170
01:30:30,649 --> 01:30:27,120
people say like awesome stuff and I'm

2171
01:30:32,930 --> 01:30:30,659
just like yes I love all of that and I

2172
01:30:35,030 --> 01:30:32,940
feel like too like you said Leah like

2173
01:30:36,169 --> 01:30:35,040
there's there's this pressure especially

2174
01:30:38,629 --> 01:30:36,179
when you're sort of learning about

2175
01:30:39,890 --> 01:30:38,639
something or diving into it yourself

2176
01:30:45,229 --> 01:30:39,900
like

2177
01:30:46,729 --> 01:30:45,239
certain ways and how powerful must that

2178
01:30:48,110 --> 01:30:46,739
have been for that person to tell you

2179
01:30:50,870 --> 01:30:48,120
like just

2180
01:30:52,850 --> 01:30:50,880
what feels natural to you just pick yeah

2181
01:30:54,470 --> 01:30:52,860
just listen to your intuition yeah pick

2182
01:30:55,430 --> 01:30:54,480
what works for you and leave the rest

2183
01:30:57,950 --> 01:30:55,440
you know

2184
01:30:59,270 --> 01:30:57,960
where um where in this subject look you

2185
01:31:01,610 --> 01:30:59,280
wrote this encyclopedia you've

2186
01:31:03,169 --> 01:31:01,620
contributed to these other works where

2187
01:31:05,510 --> 01:31:03,179
do you think

2188
01:31:08,270 --> 01:31:05,520
um are areas of this subject that are

2189
01:31:10,370 --> 01:31:08,280
understudied or underrepresented that

2190
01:31:15,290 --> 01:31:10,380
are worth consideration or further

2191
01:31:15,300 --> 01:31:20,930
that is fascinating

2192
01:31:27,770 --> 01:31:25,129
considered I gosh

2193
01:31:29,689 --> 01:31:27,780
that's a tough one I feel like I I would

2194
01:31:33,850 --> 01:31:29,699
just like to see

2195
01:31:36,830 --> 01:31:33,860
the continued inclusion of like

2196
01:31:39,830 --> 01:31:36,840
underrepresented voices

2197
01:31:42,290 --> 01:31:39,840
um International voices

2198
01:31:44,510 --> 01:31:42,300
um people from just all sorts just just

2199
01:31:48,290 --> 01:31:44,520
more diversity more diversity more

2200
01:31:51,290 --> 01:31:48,300
diverse opinions life experiences I

2201
01:31:53,629 --> 01:31:51,300
think that that will help us

2202
01:31:56,090 --> 01:31:53,639
make our understanding of how the

2203
01:31:59,090 --> 01:31:56,100
Paranormal impacts Our Lives much more

2204
01:32:01,930 --> 01:31:59,100
um not only much more inclusive but much

2205
01:32:05,390 --> 01:32:01,940
more comprehensive

2206
01:32:07,189 --> 01:32:05,400
yeah I know the um the UFO Community is

2207
01:32:08,689 --> 01:32:07,199
terminally white and male

2208
01:32:11,149 --> 01:32:08,699
um I didn't know if that crosses over to

2209
01:32:13,729 --> 01:32:11,159
to these other French communities too is

2210
01:32:18,610 --> 01:32:13,739
that it's the same case

2211
01:32:21,649 --> 01:32:18,620
I I I think so yeah I think maybe

2212
01:32:24,290 --> 01:32:21,659
perhaps less toxically so than in the

2213
01:32:25,910 --> 01:32:24,300
UFO Community which honestly like I love

2214
01:32:28,570 --> 01:32:25,920
I would I would agree with this

2215
01:32:31,669 --> 01:32:28,580
assessment so far yes

2216
01:32:33,830 --> 01:32:31,679
you're on this okay okay I love like

2217
01:32:35,689 --> 01:32:33,840
reading and about UFOs and like digging

2218
01:32:37,550 --> 01:32:35,699
into it and so forth but sometimes I

2219
01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:37,560
don't want to like engage like publicly

2220
01:32:42,770 --> 01:32:39,920
or socially because I'm like

2221
01:32:46,390 --> 01:32:42,780
[\h__\h] scary yeah this is speaking for

2222
01:32:50,750 --> 01:32:49,490
yeah there's some some real weirdos

2223
01:32:53,450 --> 01:32:50,760
okay

2224
01:32:55,790 --> 01:32:53,460
that that is a good point yeah I I think

2225
01:32:58,310 --> 01:32:55,800
I and what is it why do you think that

2226
01:32:59,870 --> 01:32:58,320
is about these these kind of um Fringe

2227
01:33:04,450 --> 01:32:59,880
or weird communities that there isn't

2228
01:33:06,350 --> 01:33:04,460
much representation outside of white men

2229
01:33:08,149 --> 01:33:06,360
especially especially when we were

2230
01:33:10,310 --> 01:33:08,159
talking about

2231
01:33:11,390 --> 01:33:10,320
um you know like women began this

2232
01:33:13,850 --> 01:33:11,400
movement

2233
01:33:15,470 --> 01:33:13,860
originally and and I I think what you

2234
01:33:18,290 --> 01:33:15,480
were saying earlier is a really

2235
01:33:20,629 --> 01:33:18,300
interesting Avenue to walk down

2236
01:33:23,810 --> 01:33:20,639
um it had never crossed my mind but you

2237
01:33:25,490 --> 01:33:23,820
made a good point I I see my answer to

2238
01:33:27,590 --> 01:33:25,500
this in Courtney I would love to hear

2239
01:33:29,450 --> 01:33:27,600
your thoughts on this but my my answer

2240
01:33:32,590 --> 01:33:29,460
to this would be that I think the kind

2241
01:33:36,470 --> 01:33:32,600
of weird studies Community more broadly

2242
01:33:39,110 --> 01:33:36,480
has a more perennialist bent than the

2243
01:33:41,689 --> 01:33:39,120
ufology community what I mean by this is

2244
01:33:43,850 --> 01:33:41,699
that people

2245
01:33:45,890 --> 01:33:43,860
seem to have a better Collective

2246
01:33:47,870 --> 01:33:45,900
understanding that different traditions

2247
01:33:51,169 --> 01:33:47,880
and practices even though they may vary

2248
01:33:54,110 --> 01:33:51,179
in their terminology and explicit

2249
01:33:59,330 --> 01:33:54,120
tactics are all kind of pointing in the

2250
01:34:00,590 --> 01:33:59,340
same direction right so you have like I

2251
01:34:03,110 --> 01:34:00,600
look at practice like when you were

2252
01:34:05,629 --> 01:34:03,120
describing the Estus practice I was like

2253
01:34:07,129 --> 01:34:05,639
oh like I would think of that as like a

2254
01:34:09,649 --> 01:34:07,139
very particular kind of meditation

2255
01:34:12,590 --> 01:34:09,659
practice but it was very easy for me to

2256
01:34:14,390 --> 01:34:12,600
map what I would call this to what Jay

2257
01:34:16,129 --> 01:34:14,400
was talking about whereas I think in

2258
01:34:17,930 --> 01:34:16,139
ufology

2259
01:34:20,390 --> 01:34:17,940
um and I also think this is an artifact

2260
01:34:22,370 --> 01:34:20,400
frankly I think it's also still a

2261
01:34:24,169 --> 01:34:22,380
conspiratorial subculture far more than

2262
01:34:26,149 --> 01:34:24,179
like weird studies are so you tend to

2263
01:34:28,729 --> 01:34:26,159
get this like more conspiranoic kind of

2264
01:34:31,370 --> 01:34:28,739
thought pattern plus the like kind of

2265
01:34:33,110 --> 01:34:31,380
your average weight middle class dude

2266
01:34:35,209 --> 01:34:33,120
who falls prey to the trappings that his

2267
01:34:36,470 --> 01:34:35,219
views are the only logical rational ones

2268
01:34:38,450 --> 01:34:36,480
and everyone else is an emotional

2269
01:34:39,169 --> 01:34:38,460
histrionic mess

2270
01:34:41,209 --> 01:34:39,179
um

2271
01:34:44,209 --> 01:34:41,219
like I think

2272
01:34:48,050 --> 01:34:44,219
and finally sort of the inflexibility of

2273
01:34:49,030 --> 01:34:48,060
the UFO Community right like like people

2274
01:34:52,310 --> 01:34:49,040
um

2275
01:34:55,250 --> 01:34:52,320
I think the sort of language and

2276
01:34:58,490 --> 01:34:55,260
understanding of ufology tends to be far

2277
01:35:01,550 --> 01:34:58,500
more brittle than the ideas that I hear

2278
01:35:03,709 --> 01:35:01,560
talked about in the weird like

2279
01:35:04,850 --> 01:35:03,719
kind of weird studies or how strangeness

2280
01:35:06,830 --> 01:35:04,860
can

2281
01:35:08,930 --> 01:35:06,840
um right Courtney when you said oh I

2282
01:35:12,830 --> 01:35:08,940
think of books as ghosts I was like I

2283
01:35:17,149 --> 01:35:15,590
whereas like in UFO in the ufology

2284
01:35:18,770 --> 01:35:17,159
community like you would have people

2285
01:35:20,689 --> 01:35:18,780
like I don't know

2286
01:35:23,330 --> 01:35:20,699
threatening to dox your family if you

2287
01:35:26,689 --> 01:35:23,340
made such a crazy statement

2288
01:35:28,430 --> 01:35:26,699
yeah that's wild and I think

2289
01:35:31,490 --> 01:35:28,440
um I'm looking at the comments I think

2290
01:35:34,729 --> 01:35:31,500
Vancouver guy has like has sort of

2291
01:35:36,649 --> 01:35:34,739
nailed what I was gonna say that I think

2292
01:35:40,910 --> 01:35:36,659
it just goes back to an extension of

2293
01:35:43,490 --> 01:35:40,920
like just the systems that that you know

2294
01:35:46,070 --> 01:35:43,500
oppress like certain voices and

2295
01:35:49,570 --> 01:35:46,080
celebrate others and all you know the

2296
01:35:52,490 --> 01:35:49,580
academy is not you know immune to that

2297
01:35:54,229 --> 01:35:52,500
historically either

2298
01:35:57,770 --> 01:35:54,239
um so I feel like that's part of the

2299
01:36:00,410 --> 01:35:57,780
reason why you you know you saw a lot of

2300
01:36:03,470 --> 01:36:00,420
um you know a particular type of voice

2301
01:36:07,070 --> 01:36:03,480
from a particular type of person

2302
01:36:09,709 --> 01:36:07,080
um and I think it's getting better like

2303
01:36:11,209 --> 01:36:09,719
many of our systems but it's like I like

2304
01:36:13,790 --> 01:36:11,219
to remind people when you're digging

2305
01:36:18,430 --> 01:36:13,800
into the historic literature

2306
01:36:21,169 --> 01:36:18,440
um you have to be on guard for the like

2307
01:36:24,290 --> 01:36:21,179
implicit and explicit ways that people

2308
01:36:28,310 --> 01:36:24,300
were erased like

2309
01:36:29,870 --> 01:36:28,320
let's say even in the 1970s there was an

2310
01:36:31,070 --> 01:36:29,880
article published and I think it was

2311
01:36:33,770 --> 01:36:31,080
like the freaking Journal of

2312
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:33,780
parapsychology that referred to the

2313
01:36:39,189 --> 01:36:38,159
rhines as uh Dr JB and Mrs rein and it's

2314
01:36:41,689 --> 01:36:39,199
like

2315
01:36:43,550 --> 01:36:41,699
I had no idea she had a doctorate until

2316
01:36:46,010 --> 01:36:43,560
you mentioned it yeah

2317
01:36:48,590 --> 01:36:46,020
and it's also like the if you want to

2318
01:36:51,310 --> 01:36:48,600
like going back even further to like the

2319
01:36:54,110 --> 01:36:51,320
1800s and like early 1900s with like

2320
01:36:56,209 --> 01:36:54,120
Eleanor Sedgwick and her husband Henry

2321
01:36:59,930 --> 01:36:56,219
Sedgwick who were psychical researchers

2322
01:37:01,970 --> 01:36:59,940
like her her Eleanor wrote a lot of

2323
01:37:03,590 --> 01:37:01,980
stuff and was like a prolific researcher

2324
01:37:06,890 --> 01:37:03,600
but

2325
01:37:08,990 --> 01:37:06,900
in the bylines of things that she wrote

2326
01:37:12,050 --> 01:37:09,000
it literally just says Mrs Henry

2327
01:37:14,750 --> 01:37:12,060
Sedgwick and so if you don't even if you

2328
01:37:17,629 --> 01:37:14,760
don't even dig a little bit you would

2329
01:37:18,350 --> 01:37:17,639
never even know her name

2330
01:37:21,410 --> 01:37:18,360
um

2331
01:37:24,050 --> 01:37:21,420
you know so and and these are like white

2332
01:37:26,689 --> 01:37:24,060
European people so we can assume that

2333
01:37:28,970 --> 01:37:26,699
it's much worse for like lots of other

2334
01:37:32,570 --> 01:37:28,980
people so yeah yeah that was a terrible

2335
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:32,580
tradition for a long time just like Mrs

2336
01:37:36,290 --> 01:37:33,840
Bob Smith

2337
01:37:37,910 --> 01:37:36,300
yeah but I've even thinking of that it's

2338
01:37:39,950 --> 01:37:37,920
still like so somebody was saying the

2339
01:37:42,530 --> 01:37:39,960
other day and I can't remember her name

2340
01:37:45,709 --> 01:37:42,540
because my brain is cabbage but the

2341
01:37:46,490 --> 01:37:45,719
local reporter at the paper

2342
01:37:52,010 --> 01:37:46,500
um

2343
01:37:54,050 --> 01:37:52,020
point person in Point Pleasant and I

2344
01:37:56,270 --> 01:37:54,060
can't remember her name

2345
01:37:58,729 --> 01:37:56,280
um oh she just passed away yeah she just

2346
01:38:00,169 --> 01:37:58,739
passed away recently right

2347
01:38:02,510 --> 01:38:00,179
um but uh

2348
01:38:04,729 --> 01:38:02,520
you know Keel we think of like Keel John

2349
01:38:08,450 --> 01:38:04,739
Keel Man of Action but like she was

2350
01:38:10,729 --> 01:38:08,460
there every day getting the stories also

2351
01:38:13,129 --> 01:38:10,739
had been in like some really strange Men

2352
01:38:16,310 --> 01:38:13,139
In Black encounters

2353
01:38:17,510 --> 01:38:16,320
um I had a lot of high strangeness

2354
01:38:20,689 --> 01:38:17,520
um

2355
01:38:23,169 --> 01:38:20,699
in her life and it's just kind of but

2356
01:38:24,709 --> 01:38:23,179
she's like a footnote in John's story

2357
01:38:27,169 --> 01:38:24,719
because

2358
01:38:29,530 --> 01:38:27,179
John's writing his own story about it

2359
01:38:32,570 --> 01:38:29,540
and it's kind of like she's there but

2360
01:38:34,550 --> 01:38:32,580
really uh really a very important person

2361
01:38:38,689 --> 01:38:34,560
in that whole

2362
01:38:40,490 --> 01:38:38,699
case I see V here had a question does

2363
01:38:42,770 --> 01:38:40,500
the side Community get political

2364
01:38:47,270 --> 01:38:42,780
conspiratorial at all

2365
01:38:51,470 --> 01:38:47,280
yeah yeah I think so I I um I'm sort of

2366
01:38:53,689 --> 01:38:51,480
like maggot ghost people yeah

2367
01:38:55,970 --> 01:38:53,699
I I think that

2368
01:38:58,430 --> 01:38:55,980
um I think that it definitely like does

2369
01:39:01,550 --> 01:38:58,440
for sure like I don't think it's to the

2370
01:39:03,590 --> 01:39:01,560
extent from what I have heard like with

2371
01:39:05,330 --> 01:39:03,600
with like the UFO Community or anything

2372
01:39:08,870 --> 01:39:05,340
like that

2373
01:39:11,270 --> 01:39:08,880
um but uh but I I think mostly like what

2374
01:39:14,090 --> 01:39:11,280
you see to answer your question V is

2375
01:39:16,729 --> 01:39:14,100
that it definitely does get kind of like

2376
01:39:18,830 --> 01:39:16,739
political and and

2377
01:39:21,169 --> 01:39:18,840
um pointed

2378
01:39:24,950 --> 01:39:21,179
like among different disciplines in the

2379
01:39:26,770 --> 01:39:24,960
academy that sort of like to go at uh

2380
01:39:29,149 --> 01:39:26,780
anything that is on The Fringe

2381
01:39:30,830 --> 01:39:29,159
parapsychology just sort of being one of

2382
01:39:33,229 --> 01:39:30,840
those which is kind of interesting

2383
01:39:36,050 --> 01:39:33,239
because I've noticed that like some

2384
01:39:39,169 --> 01:39:36,060
disciplines tend to go at it harder than

2385
01:39:41,990 --> 01:39:39,179
others like like engineers and

2386
01:39:43,910 --> 01:39:42,000
um you know physicists are just like

2387
01:39:45,050 --> 01:39:43,920
yeah like what you're not telling us

2388
01:39:47,270 --> 01:39:45,060
anything that we don't already know

2389
01:39:50,270 --> 01:39:47,280
about this world engineers and

2390
01:39:52,370 --> 01:39:50,280
physicists though like this all goes to

2391
01:39:54,350 --> 01:39:52,380
the like honestly this is I really

2392
01:39:56,770 --> 01:39:54,360
believe this this is the sixth book I've

2393
01:39:59,810 --> 01:39:56,780
read George lacost the political mind

2394
01:40:00,950 --> 01:39:59,820
lakehoff is the guy that really talks

2395
01:40:02,990 --> 01:40:00,960
about

2396
01:40:06,169 --> 01:40:03,000
um internalizing beliefs to become

2397
01:40:09,229 --> 01:40:06,179
identity and I have like never seen that

2398
01:40:11,510 --> 01:40:09,239
harder than I have with

2399
01:40:15,050 --> 01:40:11,520
um the hard science folks

2400
01:40:18,110 --> 01:40:15,060
and oh yeah they just like because

2401
01:40:19,910 --> 01:40:18,120
though I mean I remember like literally

2402
01:40:22,370 --> 01:40:19,920
you know a thousand years ago when I was

2403
01:40:25,370 --> 01:40:22,380
in college those folks didn't want to

2404
01:40:29,270 --> 01:40:25,380
acknowledge psychology and sociology as

2405
01:40:33,250 --> 01:40:29,280
science like that is that is

2406
01:40:36,950 --> 01:40:33,260
you know those are oh that's like

2407
01:40:39,649 --> 01:40:36,960
woo-woo crap that's a real science like

2408
01:40:42,850 --> 01:40:39,659
real real science has like a

2409
01:40:47,990 --> 01:40:42,860
load-bearing calculation in it somewhere

2410
01:40:49,790 --> 01:40:48,000
why I also like and I I I was really

2411
01:40:51,890 --> 01:40:49,800
good friends with one of those guys for

2412
01:40:55,010 --> 01:40:51,900
decades I was still friends lost touch

2413
01:40:57,530 --> 01:40:55,020
but um that guy told me once this is

2414
01:40:59,750 --> 01:40:57,540
literally at the level of like I'm

2415
01:41:01,430 --> 01:40:59,760
committed not even like to the quantum

2416
01:41:02,930 --> 01:41:01,440
like the standard model of particle

2417
01:41:05,930 --> 01:41:02,940
physics are committed to like the new

2418
01:41:10,310 --> 01:41:05,940
like the Newtonian model almost where

2419
01:41:12,950 --> 01:41:10,320
like if if we cannot quantify this kind

2420
01:41:14,750 --> 01:41:12,960
of relates to the AI art and AI writing

2421
01:41:16,490 --> 01:41:14,760
thing now but he really believed that

2422
01:41:18,410 --> 01:41:16,500
it's like if we cannot quantify

2423
01:41:19,810 --> 01:41:18,420
everything including like Art and

2424
01:41:22,189 --> 01:41:19,820
Science

2425
01:41:25,910 --> 01:41:22,199
then there's nothing then there's like

2426
01:41:28,430 --> 01:41:25,920
the universe is like pointless chaos and

2427
01:41:30,110 --> 01:41:28,440
we've like like instantly have succumb

2428
01:41:33,890 --> 01:41:30,120
to entropy

2429
01:41:37,310 --> 01:41:33,900
and that guy like really I was like

2430
01:41:38,090 --> 01:41:37,320
okay man well it's cool like you know

2431
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:38,100
like

2432
01:41:45,709 --> 01:41:42,239
hope you I hope you're okay now I'm

2433
01:41:48,189 --> 01:41:45,719
sorry I brought this up but yeah it's

2434
01:41:50,810 --> 01:41:48,199
yeah no go ahead

2435
01:41:52,189 --> 01:41:50,820
oh go ahead I was just gonna say though

2436
01:41:53,930 --> 01:41:52,199
but those things like when they get

2437
01:41:55,669 --> 01:41:53,940
rooted in your brain this is what lake

2438
01:41:57,890 --> 01:41:55,679
Hoff discovered because he's he's doing

2439
01:42:01,129 --> 01:41:57,900
some of this with neurological studies

2440
01:42:02,810 --> 01:42:01,139
with imaging like would your beliefs are

2441
01:42:05,510 --> 01:42:02,820
threatened your core belief that

2442
01:42:07,370 --> 01:42:05,520
constitutes your identity the same Paths

2443
01:42:09,250 --> 01:42:07,380
of your brain are lighting up as if

2444
01:42:12,590 --> 01:42:09,260
though I was physically threatening you

2445
01:42:15,649 --> 01:42:12,600
like if I'm like Twitter

2446
01:42:18,290 --> 01:42:15,659
your beliefs are false or it's like the

2447
01:42:19,970 --> 01:42:18,300
same on your EEG lights up as if I like

2448
01:42:21,830 --> 01:42:19,980
pulled out a knife

2449
01:42:24,530 --> 01:42:21,840
I mean that doesn't surprise me from the

2450
01:42:26,990 --> 01:42:24,540
interactions that you and I have on the

2451
01:42:30,470 --> 01:42:27,000
daily basis yeah

2452
01:42:34,970 --> 01:42:33,530
well I have seen like what you said and

2453
01:42:36,830 --> 01:42:34,980
what Courtney said like I've seen people

2454
01:42:39,890 --> 01:42:36,840
have personal disagreements and high

2455
01:42:42,530 --> 01:42:39,900
strangeness land and there's ego there's

2456
01:42:45,229 --> 01:42:42,540
definitely egos but I've never seen

2457
01:42:47,209 --> 01:42:45,239
anything like I've seen on UFO Twitter

2458
01:42:51,770 --> 01:42:47,219
with that

2459
01:42:51,780 --> 01:42:54,250
um

2460
01:42:58,850 --> 01:42:57,109
so so Courtney had there been

2461
01:43:00,709 --> 01:42:58,860
um well I have kind of a two-prong

2462
01:43:01,609 --> 01:43:00,719
question in case you want to write them

2463
01:43:05,090 --> 01:43:01,619
down

2464
01:43:06,830 --> 01:43:05,100
um my first question is did uh and feel

2465
01:43:09,169 --> 01:43:06,840
free of course to not answer those if

2466
01:43:10,790 --> 01:43:09,179
you don't want to because it is personal

2467
01:43:12,649 --> 01:43:10,800
um did you have like any particular

2468
01:43:16,070 --> 01:43:12,659
experience or event in your life that

2469
01:43:19,129 --> 01:43:16,080
prompted an interest in this subject

2470
01:43:21,649 --> 01:43:19,139
um and then the second question is what

2471
01:43:23,450 --> 01:43:21,659
thinkers or writers or creators or

2472
01:43:26,570 --> 01:43:23,460
artists or whatever who has like

2473
01:43:28,550 --> 01:43:26,580
informed your own view or who's been a

2474
01:43:32,030 --> 01:43:28,560
specially formative for you

2475
01:43:35,209 --> 01:43:32,040
okay I love both of these

2476
01:43:38,330 --> 01:43:35,219
um I uh

2477
01:43:39,790 --> 01:43:38,340
gosh yeah I I've had like some

2478
01:43:43,609 --> 01:43:39,800
personal

2479
01:43:44,450 --> 01:43:43,619
experiences uh like of the Paranormal

2480
01:43:47,470 --> 01:43:44,460
um

2481
01:43:50,590 --> 01:43:47,480
I think that it was more

2482
01:43:53,750 --> 01:43:50,600
more so just like a Natural Curiosity

2483
01:43:55,850 --> 01:43:53,760
and affinity for those topics like

2484
01:43:59,450 --> 01:43:55,860
probably a lot of us like we remember

2485
01:44:01,189 --> 01:43:59,460
like reading I remember reading a book I

2486
01:44:03,770 --> 01:44:01,199
think like the first like Supernatural

2487
01:44:06,410 --> 01:44:03,780
related book that I read was about the

2488
01:44:08,750 --> 01:44:06,420
haunted history of the Tower of London

2489
01:44:10,910 --> 01:44:08,760
and like and also the Loch Ness monster

2490
01:44:12,189 --> 01:44:10,920
and I was like what is this yes I love

2491
01:44:14,750 --> 01:44:12,199
it

2492
01:44:16,729 --> 01:44:14,760
and from there I was just like I'm

2493
01:44:20,870 --> 01:44:16,739
hooked man

2494
01:44:23,750 --> 01:44:20,880
um but I I do remember just like a few

2495
01:44:25,430 --> 01:44:23,760
um just kind of like minor I guess like

2496
01:44:28,129 --> 01:44:25,440
Paranormal experiences nothing that

2497
01:44:29,570 --> 01:44:28,139
really like stands out is like that was

2498
01:44:30,890 --> 01:44:29,580
it for me

2499
01:44:32,570 --> 01:44:30,900
um

2500
01:44:40,189 --> 01:44:32,580
and

2501
01:44:43,310 --> 01:44:40,199
oh my God okay so a book yeah like

2502
01:44:44,870 --> 01:44:43,320
anything formative yes yeah yeah so I do

2503
01:44:47,390 --> 01:44:44,880
remember yeah definitely reading about

2504
01:44:49,310 --> 01:44:47,400
the Tower of London when I was younger

2505
01:44:53,390 --> 01:44:49,320
for sure

2506
01:44:55,490 --> 01:44:53,400
um and uh reading about like the Loch

2507
01:44:57,770 --> 01:44:55,500
Ness monster

2508
01:45:00,050 --> 01:44:57,780
um watching you know like Unsolved

2509
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:00,060
Mysteries with like my mom and like

2510
01:45:07,129 --> 01:45:03,119
hearing the I think also too what was

2511
01:45:11,450 --> 01:45:07,139
really formative for me was hearing

2512
01:45:14,450 --> 01:45:11,460
the stories that my family would pass

2513
01:45:16,609 --> 01:45:14,460
down about their cool paranormal

2514
01:45:19,669 --> 01:45:16,619
experiences yeah

2515
01:45:21,649 --> 01:45:19,679
um I think those really like impacted me

2516
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:21,659
too because not only was it like oh this

2517
01:45:26,689 --> 01:45:24,000
is like part of like my family my

2518
01:45:28,790 --> 01:45:26,699
family's history like these people you

2519
01:45:30,890 --> 01:45:28,800
know having these experiences and and

2520
01:45:32,770 --> 01:45:30,900
also just being interested in the topic

2521
01:45:36,050 --> 01:45:32,780
and um

2522
01:45:37,669 --> 01:45:36,060
uh in terms of writers and creators and

2523
01:45:42,470 --> 01:45:37,679
artists currently that I'm just like

2524
01:45:44,510 --> 01:45:42,480
obsessed with uh I have really been

2525
01:45:49,370 --> 01:45:44,520
obsessed with the work

2526
01:45:52,010 --> 01:45:49,380
um and life of Raya white who was a uh

2527
01:45:54,370 --> 01:45:52,020
psychical researcher at Duke University

2528
01:45:56,990 --> 01:45:54,380
who later went on to become a librarian

2529
01:45:59,810 --> 01:45:57,000
she did a lot of

2530
01:46:02,450 --> 01:45:59,820
um research in particular in her early

2531
01:46:05,149 --> 01:46:02,460
years with extra sensory perception in

2532
01:46:06,950 --> 01:46:05,159
children uh school school children that

2533
01:46:09,470 --> 01:46:06,960
is

2534
01:46:11,510 --> 01:46:09,480
um and the test she did those tests with

2535
01:46:15,109 --> 01:46:11,520
her uh co-researcher

2536
01:46:18,109 --> 01:46:15,119
um Margaret and

2537
01:46:20,330 --> 01:46:18,119
um I when I went to Duke University I

2538
01:46:23,450 --> 01:46:20,340
really wanted to find more about her

2539
01:46:25,609 --> 01:46:23,460
life because she was like you know this

2540
01:46:29,689 --> 01:46:25,619
weird this weirdo just like me this

2541
01:46:32,090 --> 01:46:29,699
librarian just like me and I I like

2542
01:46:35,810 --> 01:46:32,100
what I found

2543
01:46:39,590 --> 01:46:35,820
I was not expecting to find nearly like

2544
01:46:41,990 --> 01:46:39,600
70 Pages worth of these love letters

2545
01:46:43,510 --> 01:46:42,000
that she had written to Margaret

2546
01:46:47,330 --> 01:46:43,520
and

2547
01:46:50,870 --> 01:46:47,340
they like when I say that they are like

2548
01:46:52,609 --> 01:46:50,880
changing my life like I I really mean

2549
01:46:54,709 --> 01:46:52,619
that they're just so

2550
01:46:58,490 --> 01:46:54,719
I mean Not only was like this was the

2551
01:47:00,709 --> 01:46:58,500
1950s um it was North Carolina these

2552
01:47:04,189 --> 01:47:00,719
were women in the Academy I mean there's

2553
01:47:04,850 --> 01:47:04,199
so many instructions

2554
01:47:08,270 --> 01:47:04,860
um

2555
01:47:10,370 --> 01:47:08,280
of this and uh and also too the fact

2556
01:47:13,370 --> 01:47:10,380
that Raya came up with this this

2557
01:47:17,330 --> 01:47:13,380
beautiful Theory

2558
01:47:21,169 --> 01:47:17,340
um of exceptional human experiences

2559
01:47:24,350 --> 01:47:21,179
and literally created like a database

2560
01:47:26,810 --> 01:47:24,360
where like she was capturing these

2561
01:47:30,350 --> 01:47:26,820
really powerful experiences just because

2562
01:47:31,970 --> 01:47:30,360
she saw the value in capturing that for

2563
01:47:33,290 --> 01:47:31,980
the record like for just the human

2564
01:47:35,510 --> 01:47:33,300
record

2565
01:47:38,450 --> 01:47:35,520
um and and far less concerned about like

2566
01:47:40,370 --> 01:47:38,460
what do the can I she was far less

2567
01:47:43,189 --> 01:47:40,380
concerned and this is one of the reasons

2568
01:47:46,070 --> 01:47:43,199
I love her far less concerned about can

2569
01:47:49,689 --> 01:47:46,080
I prove what you just told me and more

2570
01:47:53,209 --> 01:47:49,699
how did this impact your life yes yes

2571
01:47:55,370 --> 01:47:53,219
oh I love this this is something

2572
01:47:58,729 --> 01:47:55,380
um I I love this uh for a very personal

2573
01:48:01,490 --> 01:47:58,739
reason which is I think that um I think

2574
01:48:03,530 --> 01:48:01,500
this is what should be done or how

2575
01:48:05,149 --> 01:48:03,540
experiences should be approached right

2576
01:48:06,770 --> 01:48:05,159
basically from an ethnographic

2577
01:48:09,530 --> 01:48:06,780
perspective to hear narratives like what

2578
01:48:11,330 --> 01:48:09,540
Alfred Kinsey did for sex basically yeah

2579
01:48:13,070 --> 01:48:11,340
um it's not a question of proof it is a

2580
01:48:16,850 --> 01:48:13,080
question of sort of exploring and

2581
01:48:18,470 --> 01:48:16,860
documenting uh Human Experience

2582
01:48:20,990 --> 01:48:18,480
um I love those this is I want to look

2583
01:48:22,430 --> 01:48:21,000
her up and learn more about her yeah

2584
01:48:25,850 --> 01:48:22,440
yeah she

2585
01:48:28,790 --> 01:48:25,860
um so she also uh wrote

2586
01:48:31,550 --> 01:48:28,800
um similar books uh as as like what I

2587
01:48:34,310 --> 01:48:31,560
wrote uh in particular for a number of

2588
01:48:37,370 --> 01:48:34,320
like decades she would write a

2589
01:48:38,870 --> 01:48:37,380
bibliographic resource like just books

2590
01:48:42,370 --> 01:48:38,880
that were basically just gigantic

2591
01:48:45,530 --> 01:48:42,380
bibliographies about like you know the

2592
01:48:48,410 --> 01:48:45,540
parent parapsychological research 1970

2593
01:48:54,229 --> 01:48:48,420
to 1979 and here's the book you know and

2594
01:48:59,209 --> 01:48:57,169
um another person another librarian that

2595
01:49:02,229 --> 01:48:59,219
I'll talk about George Eberhart who

2596
01:49:05,990 --> 01:49:02,239
wrote uh Geo bibliography of anomalies

2597
01:49:09,290 --> 01:49:06,000
cool which is such a free and goal book

2598
01:49:12,229 --> 01:49:09,300
um indexing uh it's actually

2599
01:49:14,090 --> 01:49:12,239
international well I think it's the

2600
01:49:15,830 --> 01:49:14,100
United States and Canada

2601
01:49:18,350 --> 01:49:15,840
um

2602
01:49:23,629 --> 01:49:18,360
but like indexes all of these like cool

2603
01:49:27,709 --> 01:49:23,639
experiences and um yeah so uh Raya is

2604
01:49:28,850 --> 01:49:27,719
one I'm she she has passed away whoop

2605
01:49:31,550 --> 01:49:28,860
sorry

2606
01:49:34,189 --> 01:49:31,560
um she passed away in 2007 I'm in the

2607
01:49:38,149 --> 01:49:34,199
process I have found two people who knew

2608
01:49:40,850 --> 01:49:38,159
her in in real life who have agreed to

2609
01:49:43,189 --> 01:49:40,860
talk to me so I'm hoping to learn more

2610
01:49:44,470 --> 01:49:43,199
about her and

2611
01:49:46,910 --> 01:49:44,480
um yeah

2612
01:49:48,250 --> 01:49:46,920
that's awesome

2613
01:49:50,510 --> 01:49:48,260
amazing

2614
01:49:53,090 --> 01:49:50,520
all right we are coming up right on the

2615
01:49:58,370 --> 01:49:53,100
top of the hour I can tell my eyelids

2616
01:50:04,010 --> 01:50:01,189
um plug something on Courtney's behalf

2617
01:50:08,090 --> 01:50:04,020
yeah yes okay

2618
01:50:11,330 --> 01:50:08,100
I could say CLA in the comments and at

2619
01:50:15,890 --> 01:50:11,340
the last year's pan pericon Courtney and

2620
01:50:19,010 --> 01:50:15,900
La did an amazing presentation on

2621
01:50:20,750 --> 01:50:19,020
um doing your own research oh cool for

2622
01:50:24,229 --> 01:50:20,760
any kind of how to get into doing

2623
01:50:26,990 --> 01:50:24,239
research um one of my favorites uh of a

2624
01:50:29,030 --> 01:50:27,000
totally awesome ones that is if you go

2625
01:50:31,490 --> 01:50:29,040
to YouTube look for pan paracon and

2626
01:50:32,990 --> 01:50:31,500
search through we cut it into uh

2627
01:50:35,510 --> 01:50:33,000
individual segment if you just want to

2628
01:50:37,970 --> 01:50:35,520
go right to that but the two of them did

2629
01:50:40,070 --> 01:50:37,980
an amazing job and uh

2630
01:50:42,109 --> 01:50:40,080
it that is if you've just like I need

2631
01:50:44,050 --> 01:50:42,119
more Courtney in my life right now you

2632
01:50:46,790 --> 01:50:44,060
can go watch that right after this

2633
01:50:48,830 --> 01:50:46,800
thanks for plugging that Jay yeah Ally

2634
01:50:51,050 --> 01:50:48,840
like designed that that whole

2635
01:50:54,350 --> 01:50:51,060
presentation like speaking of another

2636
01:50:56,629 --> 01:50:54,360
she's also a spooky librarian as well

2637
01:51:00,109 --> 01:50:56,639
and somebody who inspires me and and

2638
01:51:03,229 --> 01:51:00,119
yeah so it had the cutest Graphics of

2639
01:51:08,750 --> 01:51:03,239
any presentation that I've seen that

2640
01:51:12,470 --> 01:51:11,270
um So Courtney where can our audience

2641
01:51:15,370 --> 01:51:12,480
find you

2642
01:51:19,970 --> 01:51:15,380
oh uh so I am most active on Instagram

2643
01:51:22,490 --> 01:51:19,980
uh at liminal dot librarian

2644
01:51:24,530 --> 01:51:22,500
um that's where you can find me and and

2645
01:51:27,649 --> 01:51:24,540
also too I just want to say that if

2646
01:51:29,390 --> 01:51:27,659
you're like interested in you know not

2647
01:51:30,709 --> 01:51:29,400
just my works but like the stuff the

2648
01:51:34,129 --> 01:51:30,719
books that we were constantly talking

2649
01:51:36,530 --> 01:51:34,139
about tonight ask for them at your local

2650
01:51:39,229 --> 01:51:36,540
library see if they can get a copy in

2651
01:51:41,330 --> 01:51:39,239
some way for you save your money maybe

2652
01:51:42,709 --> 01:51:41,340
go pie a paradise and get weird one

2653
01:51:44,629 --> 01:51:42,719
weekend

2654
01:51:46,970 --> 01:51:44,639
um but I always just like to remind

2655
01:51:50,270 --> 01:51:46,980
people truly that like

2656
01:51:52,850 --> 01:51:50,280
it is a it's a privilege to be able to

2657
01:51:55,010 --> 01:51:52,860
have have money to spend on you know

2658
01:51:57,050 --> 01:51:55,020
buying books and by all means if you

2659
01:51:59,270 --> 01:51:57,060
want to own a book go for it but also

2660
01:52:03,470 --> 01:51:59,280
know that like you don't have to

2661
01:52:07,250 --> 01:52:03,480
spend any money to access all the weird

2662
01:52:13,729 --> 01:52:10,930
that's awesome I'm totally with you yeah

2663
01:52:15,770 --> 01:52:13,739
like I don't need to spend 100 bucks on

2664
01:52:18,649 --> 01:52:15,780
Amazon and go to library and then go to

2665
01:52:20,870 --> 01:52:18,659
a go to another paranormal yeah yeah or

2666
01:52:22,250 --> 01:52:20,880
you know or hey like if you if you

2667
01:52:23,570 --> 01:52:22,260
if it's really awesome you know

2668
01:52:26,330 --> 01:52:23,580
you know import your logo

2669
01:52:27,890 --> 01:52:26,340
uh bookstore and you know and and but

2670
01:52:29,570 --> 01:52:27,900
yeah if you ask your libraries to get it

2671
01:52:31,189 --> 01:52:29,580
I mean your authors you know whatever

2672
01:52:32,930 --> 01:52:31,199
book it is your authors like still

2673
01:52:35,450 --> 01:52:32,940
eventually get paid for that so you're

2674
01:52:38,209 --> 01:52:35,460
still you're still supporting your

2675
01:52:40,310 --> 01:52:38,219
authors but you're also you know saving

2676
01:52:42,229 --> 01:52:40,320
yourself some money and and enabling the

2677
01:52:45,350 --> 01:52:42,239
next weirdo in line to find it you know

2678
01:52:46,729 --> 01:52:45,360
so oops wonderful Courtney thank you

2679
01:52:48,950 --> 01:52:46,739
again we would love to have you back in

2680
01:52:50,390 --> 01:52:48,960
the future absolutely but like what came

2681
01:52:51,950 --> 01:52:50,400
immediately to mind was like we gotta

2682
01:52:54,109 --> 01:52:51,960
have her on to talk through how to

2683
01:52:57,350 --> 01:52:54,119
conduct research on weird [\h__\h] because

2684
01:52:58,850 --> 01:52:57,360
this is a critically underserved area

2685
01:53:01,189 --> 01:52:58,860
um Jay thanks so much for bringing it up

2686
01:53:03,530 --> 01:53:01,199
Courtney happy wonderful night

2687
01:53:06,709 --> 01:53:03,540
um we'll talk to you soon okay thanks

2688
01:53:10,070 --> 01:53:06,719
all right take care

2689
01:53:11,810 --> 01:53:10,080
all right that was awesome she's great I

2690
01:53:14,270 --> 01:53:11,820
love it she was great yeah like one of

2691
01:53:17,890 --> 01:53:14,280
the best people she's a treasure uh also

2692
01:53:21,830 --> 01:53:17,900
nice to not talk about UFOs for a week

2693
01:53:23,030 --> 01:53:21,840
to talk about Ryan and parapsychology I

2694
01:53:26,270 --> 01:53:23,040
don't even know what's happening with

2695
01:53:29,090 --> 01:53:26,280
UFOs I literally like whatever happened

2696
01:53:31,790 --> 01:53:29,100
UFO Twitter got blue balled by it so

2697
01:53:33,470 --> 01:53:31,800
quickly and then it's just like I don't

2698
01:53:36,229 --> 01:53:33,480
even know what it was are you talking

2699
01:53:42,010 --> 01:53:36,239
about the uh the flares over 29 Palms

2700
01:53:46,850 --> 01:53:44,450
it was known that I was thinking about

2701
01:53:48,129 --> 01:53:46,860
but then it is it's like the people I

2702
01:53:50,270 --> 01:53:48,139
don't know we've got the flares Eric

2703
01:53:52,070 --> 01:53:50,280
Weinstein kind of like getting totally

2704
01:53:53,890 --> 01:53:52,080
brainwormed in the last few days has

2705
01:53:56,330 --> 01:53:53,900
been my point Adventure Time um yeah

2706
01:53:59,870 --> 01:53:56,340
Paulson would be great to have on Amanda

2707
01:54:02,930 --> 01:53:59,880
Paulson sure

2708
01:54:04,669 --> 01:54:02,940
yeah yeah yeah cool

2709
01:54:06,470 --> 01:54:04,679
um I don't know I just feel like oh

2710
01:54:08,390 --> 01:54:06,480
there's so many people on that side of

2711
01:54:09,229 --> 01:54:08,400
the fence that are interesting to talk

2712
01:54:11,570 --> 01:54:09,239
to

2713
01:54:14,270 --> 01:54:11,580
you could get the uh liminal Earth guys

2714
01:54:14,890 --> 01:54:14,280
on your Kelly on

2715
01:54:18,109 --> 01:54:14,900
um

2716
01:54:18,950 --> 01:54:18,119
he built stuff too and he's also a

2717
01:54:20,950 --> 01:54:18,960
hangout

2718
01:54:37,250 --> 01:54:20,960
s

2719
01:54:38,870 --> 01:54:37,260
YouTube right yeah

2720
01:54:41,570 --> 01:54:38,880
yeah I definitely want to check that out

2721
01:54:44,090 --> 01:54:41,580
yeah that's it you had uh Vanessa that's

2722
01:54:47,990 --> 01:54:44,100
like the thing that Vanessa and myself

2723
01:54:48,950 --> 01:54:48,000
and Marissa zeldman work on together I

2724
01:54:51,050 --> 01:54:48,960
don't know if we're doing it again

2725
01:54:52,189 --> 01:54:51,060
because last year almost killed us but

2726
01:54:55,609 --> 01:54:52,199
um

2727
01:54:57,350 --> 01:54:55,619
yes yeah it was good but uh all the

2728
01:54:59,450 --> 01:54:57,360
videos are like we want them to live up

2729
01:55:01,250 --> 01:54:59,460
there in perpetuity forever and we

2730
01:55:03,169 --> 01:55:01,260
caught them individually so like if

2731
01:55:04,609 --> 01:55:03,179
party ever is like

2732
01:55:06,410 --> 01:55:04,619
um Alicia Landreth was the other

2733
01:55:09,169 --> 01:55:06,420
librarian I don't know like sometimes

2734
01:55:11,390 --> 01:55:09,179
when people have like a like pseudonym I

2735
01:55:13,430 --> 01:55:11,400
don't want to like accidentally docs

2736
01:55:15,910 --> 01:55:13,440
them by giving their real names but I

2737
01:55:18,770 --> 01:55:15,920
think like Leo crime

2738
01:55:22,490 --> 01:55:18,780
I also want to say there's part of me

2739
01:55:24,590 --> 01:55:22,500
that's like I really am freaked out a

2740
01:55:26,570 --> 01:55:24,600
little bit by the intensity of the UFO

2741
01:55:29,390 --> 01:55:26,580
Bros and how much is directed against

2742
01:55:32,450 --> 01:55:29,400
the show which I just view as a it's a

2743
01:55:33,770 --> 01:55:32,460
good show but like they really are like

2744
01:55:37,850 --> 01:55:33,780
Secret

2745
01:55:39,649 --> 01:55:37,860
government cabal [\h__\h] and I I want to

2746
01:55:41,390 --> 01:55:39,659
say there's part of me that wants to say

2747
01:55:43,550 --> 01:55:41,400
like I don't want this guy to even know

2748
01:55:45,050 --> 01:55:43,560
I I'm a y but like there's part of me

2749
01:55:47,209 --> 01:55:45,060
wants to be like if tupacabra if you're

2750
01:55:49,490 --> 01:55:47,219
listening that whole [\h__\h] um I'm

2751
01:55:51,770 --> 01:55:49,500
always at home I never leave and that

2752
01:55:53,450 --> 01:55:51,780
whole [\h__\h] speech about the armaments

2753
01:55:55,550 --> 01:55:53,460
they have in Aliens too it's what I have

2754
01:55:57,709 --> 01:55:55,560
in my [\h__\h] house I have Luke's I have

2755
01:56:01,310 --> 01:55:57,719
knives I have sharpened sticks don't

2756
01:56:02,750 --> 01:56:01,320
don't even worry about that yeah we

2757
01:56:05,570 --> 01:56:02,760
don't we don't even address it because

2758
01:56:07,490 --> 01:56:05,580
it's just so unhinged like it's like

2759
01:56:10,970 --> 01:56:07,500
it's a joke here are some real things

2760
01:56:13,430 --> 01:56:10,980
about him though so yeah well those guys

2761
01:56:15,169 --> 01:56:13,440
get yeah I don't know there was stuff

2762
01:56:17,689 --> 01:56:15,179
like that though I hate to say this like

2763
01:56:19,490 --> 01:56:17,699
there is stuff like that not so much in

2764
01:56:22,129 --> 01:56:19,500
the weird Community but in the occult

2765
01:56:24,950 --> 01:56:22,139
Community oh for sure really yeah the

2766
01:56:26,450 --> 01:56:24,960
occult Community yeah real strange it's

2767
01:56:28,490 --> 01:56:26,460
and it's funny I think a lot of that

2768
01:56:30,109 --> 01:56:28,500
comes too from having these lineages

2769
01:56:33,050 --> 01:56:30,119
where like you have basically you have

2770
01:56:34,910 --> 01:56:33,060
Guru relationships with teachers and

2771
01:56:37,310 --> 01:56:34,920
instructors which which tends to breed

2772
01:56:39,229 --> 01:56:37,320
this like really weird [\h__\h] you also

2773
01:56:42,050 --> 01:56:39,239
have a lot of Nazis that are trying to

2774
01:56:44,689 --> 01:56:42,060
conceive the fact that they're not yeah

2775
01:56:46,790 --> 01:56:44,699
yeah totally dude there's yeah the

2776
01:56:49,609 --> 01:56:46,800
alt-right I mean the fascist creep is

2777
01:56:51,050 --> 01:56:49,619
for real for real a thing but yeah you

2778
01:56:52,970 --> 01:56:51,060
see a ton in the occult Community you

2779
01:56:54,470 --> 01:56:52,980
see it a lot in like honestly you see a

2780
01:56:58,070 --> 01:56:54,480
lot in like the esoteric Buddhist

2781
01:56:59,930 --> 01:56:58,080
Community yeah a lot I really hope Greg

2782
01:57:02,570 --> 01:56:59,940
Newkirk doesn't get mad though because

2783
01:57:04,010 --> 01:57:02,580
he gets like heed name searches and he's

2784
01:57:10,729 --> 01:57:04,020
like

2785
01:57:12,470 --> 01:57:10,739
everybody's got dickish personal beefs

2786
01:57:14,330 --> 01:57:12,480
with each other that could be resolved

2787
01:57:16,510 --> 01:57:14,340
on a lot of these people if they would

2788
01:57:19,850 --> 01:57:16,520
just talk to each other but they don't

2789
01:57:21,890 --> 01:57:19,860
and human communication the people that

2790
01:57:23,930 --> 01:57:21,900
I hate to say this okay because I'm not

2791
01:57:26,510 --> 01:57:23,940
like the people that are making like

2792
01:57:28,189 --> 01:57:26,520
their Prime work at shitty is the people

2793
01:57:31,209 --> 01:57:28,199
that are trying to make their primary

2794
01:57:35,750 --> 01:57:31,219
income from weird chat

2795
01:57:37,729 --> 01:57:35,760
are like get like me like you know it's

2796
01:57:38,689 --> 01:57:37,739
like if you talk if you criticize them

2797
01:57:41,510 --> 01:57:38,699
it's like you're trying to stick them

2798
01:57:43,550 --> 01:57:41,520
for their paper not criticize like

2799
01:57:45,709 --> 01:57:43,560
something they did or didn't do like

2800
01:57:48,109 --> 01:57:45,719
that was a [\h__\h] up experiment I just

2801
01:57:49,310 --> 01:57:48,119
literally I hate to say this okay like I

2802
01:57:51,290 --> 01:57:49,320
don't think those guys knew what they

2803
01:57:53,270 --> 01:57:51,300
were doing I think it was classic like

2804
01:57:57,050 --> 01:57:53,280
an ad science like we're gonna hypnotize

2805
01:57:59,450 --> 01:57:57,060
this guy and do this without really

2806
01:58:08,109 --> 01:57:59,460
having the back like the person that I

2807
01:58:13,729 --> 01:58:11,930
if you're like you know it's like

2808
01:58:14,870 --> 01:58:13,739
like if you came to me and wanted a

2809
01:58:17,270 --> 01:58:14,880
brain machine but told me you had

2810
01:58:19,129 --> 01:58:17,280
epilepsy I would say no like there's no

2811
01:58:20,570 --> 01:58:19,139
[\h__\h] way I'm giving that to you I

2812
01:58:22,370 --> 01:58:20,580
don't have epilepsy and I still want

2813
01:58:23,990 --> 01:58:22,380
that brain machine man it's still yours

2814
01:58:25,370 --> 01:58:24,000
it's just you got married and went to

2815
01:58:28,270 --> 01:58:25,380
the other part of the [\h__\h] country

2816
01:58:30,010 --> 01:58:28,280
like I'll see you oh no I'll be back

2817
01:58:33,649 --> 01:58:30,020
yeah

2818
01:58:34,970 --> 01:58:33,659
when I see it but uh like that guy

2819
01:58:38,089 --> 01:58:34,980
should have said something

2820
01:58:40,669 --> 01:58:38,099
like look man right yeah like like this

2821
01:58:42,770 --> 01:58:40,679
is not gonna go we can't just put him in

2822
01:58:45,050 --> 01:58:42,780
here make him live this experience and

2823
01:58:46,070 --> 01:58:45,060
then bring him out like and be like and

2824
01:58:48,830 --> 01:58:46,080
fine

2825
01:58:51,770 --> 01:58:50,149
on that note

2826
01:58:53,330 --> 01:58:51,780
a couple of couple things to wrap things

2827
01:58:54,890 --> 01:58:53,340
up for the evening

2828
01:58:57,649 --> 01:58:54,900
um first of all just for people tuning

2829
01:58:59,750 --> 01:58:57,659
in Jay is adjunct so he'll be joining us

2830
01:59:01,129 --> 01:58:59,760
periodically in the future as desired

2831
01:59:03,290 --> 01:59:01,139
when desired

2832
01:59:06,530 --> 01:59:03,300
um loved having you on this evening next

2833
01:59:08,330 --> 01:59:06,540
week we welcome Deborah Hyde who is a

2834
01:59:11,270 --> 01:59:08,340
British skeptic folklorist cultural

2835
01:59:12,709 --> 01:59:11,280
Anthropologist and ufologist uh very

2836
01:59:14,990 --> 01:59:12,719
excited to have her on she's a big get

2837
01:59:17,330 --> 01:59:15,000
thank you to Campbell for doing this

2838
01:59:19,430 --> 01:59:17,340
um after that we re-welcomed back we

2839
01:59:21,290 --> 01:59:19,440
beloved Vanessa veloco who will also be

2840
01:59:23,510 --> 01:59:21,300
joining us as adjunct faculty in the

2841
01:59:25,070 --> 01:59:23,520
future so she'll be dropping in uh to

2842
01:59:26,689 --> 01:59:25,080
host and co-host and join the

2843
01:59:27,350 --> 01:59:26,699
conversation

2844
01:59:29,089 --> 01:59:27,360
um

2845
01:59:31,550 --> 01:59:29,099
super excited to bring both of them on

2846
01:59:33,350 --> 01:59:31,560
over the next couple weeks

2847
01:59:34,550 --> 01:59:33,360
I'll thank you so much for dropping in

2848
01:59:36,410 --> 01:59:34,560
and joining us on your Wednesday

2849
01:59:40,089 --> 01:59:36,420
evenings

2850
01:59:45,530 --> 01:59:43,430
what that's it should your Internet is

2851
01:59:47,330 --> 01:59:45,540
just like it's done get out of that

2852
01:59:48,850 --> 01:59:47,340
sauna

2853
01:59:51,830 --> 01:59:48,860
yeah

2854
01:59:54,589 --> 01:59:51,840
she's broadcasting from Asana that's

2855
01:59:55,729 --> 01:59:54,599
weird no it's real no it's inappropriate

2856
01:59:57,890 --> 01:59:55,739
really

2857
02:00:00,709 --> 01:59:57,900
um it's actually your internet is run

2858
02:00:02,570 --> 02:00:00,719
through that Nick Nix SE 30 which is

2859
02:00:04,729 --> 02:00:02,580
trying its best that I see in the

2860
02:00:07,850 --> 02:00:04,739
background there it's just like I'm 30

2861
02:00:10,430 --> 02:00:07,860
years old like to like drop my phone

2862
02:00:13,729 --> 02:00:10,440
onto the modem before I land

2863
02:00:16,490 --> 02:00:13,739
um cool all right on that note

2864
02:00:18,530 --> 02:00:16,500
yes all right yeah whatever see ya

2865
02:00:26,140 --> 02:00:18,540
yeah all right good night good night Jay

2866
02:00:26,150 --> 02:00:48,109
[Music]

2867
02:01:02,460 --> 02:00:49,240
foreign

2868
02:01:04,030 --> 02:01:02,470
[Music]

2869
02:01:24,169 --> 02:01:04,040
[Applause]

2870
02:01:24,179 --> 02:01:27,710
foreign